I like that you have faith in the common man, but many consumers are ignorant, lazy, or don't have the means to obtain and take in information. The industry knows this, hell sometimes they bank on it.
They are ignorant or lazy because they choose to be ignorant or lazy, so they are to blame. If they do not want to be taken advantage of, they should learn not to be ignorant or lazy. Companies usually take any chance they get to make more money, even if it means practically stealing from the consumers. It is the same whether the topic is bank loans or what type of PC to buy.
If people do not bother learning how to use a computer properly and thus have to buy a Mac, whether they can afford it or not, it is their fault. If people are greedy and want to buy more junk that they do not need and thus get bank loans that they will not be able to pay back, it is their fault.
Do you expect a store to say to a customer "This product is overpriced. You should buy this cheaper product since it is a much better value."? People should know what they want before they buy something.
Do you expect a bank to know if a person will be able to pay back a loan better than the person that wants the loan? Sometimes it might be obvious if the person would be able to pay it back, but that is not always the case.
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"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter
Why do you think we elect the smarter, harder working among us to govern and make important decisions? Because we're not capable of doing it directly. There are many people who believe that businesses are doing whats in their (the people's) best interest in exchange for their consumer dollars. Not all of these people are intentionally ignorant. Most companies even advertise (and in many cases, are expected to have) trained employees who are honest and will help such consumers in-depth with their needs.
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If people do not bother learning how to use a computer properly and thus have to buy a Mac, whether they can afford it or not, it is their fault. If people are greedy and want to buy more junk that they do not need and thus get bank loans that they will not be able to pay back, it is their fault.
How do you know it's always greed? What if someone needed a loan to pay for medical treatment, or to pay their rent until they can get a new job? Or just hope to have their own house one day?
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Do you expect a store to say to a customer "This product is overpriced. You should buy this cheaper product since it is a much better value."? People should know what they want before they buy something.
If someone's looking at a high-end model, you don't necessarily have tell them they don't need it. But at least be somewhat honest, don't sell them something you know won't meet their needs properly, or is just a piece of crap.
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Do you expect a bank to know if a person will be able to pay back a loan better than the person that wants the loan?
Yes, actually. Don't they do credit checks or asset appraisals or something to see if person is likely to be able to pay back a loan? Isn't that what certain employees are trained/paid for? I really don't know, I'm not in banking and finance.
You seem to have a very negative view of common people. Yeah, a lot of them are a-holes, but the good ones shouldn't pay for their crimes.
In my opinion, it would be a worthwhile venture for Microsoft to make at least a Java-based version of the software. I mean, at least then, most platforms could run it.
I would "sign" the petition, but I can't really use my Zune.net account right now.
Why do you think we elect the smarter, harder working among us to govern and make important decisions? Because we're not capable of doing it directly. There are many people who believe that businesses are doing whats in their (the people's) best interest in exchange for their consumer dollars. Not all of these people are intentionally ignorant. Most companies even advertise (and in many cases, are expected to have) trained employees who are honest and will help such consumers in-depth with their needs.
How do you know it's always greed? What if someone needed a loan to pay for medical treatment, or to pay their rent until they can get a new job? Or just hope to have their own house one day?
If someone's looking at a high-end model, you don't necessarily have tell them they don't need it. But at least be somewhat honest, don't sell them something you know won't meet their needs properly, or is just a piece of crap.
Yes, actually. Don't they do credit checks or asset appraisals or something to see if person is likely to be able to pay back a loan? Isn't that what certain employees are trained/paid for? I really don't know, I'm not in banking and finance.
You seem to have a very negative view of common people. Yeah, a lot of them are a-holes, but the good ones shouldn't pay for their crimes.
The point of business is to make money, and that does not necessarily always mean putting the customers' best interests first. Most people should know that. It is pretty much common knowledge. People should do some research beforehand to make sure that they are getting a good deal. Even if they do not know what the specs mean, they can read other people's reviews to get a good idea if the product is of good quality and has a good price.
I did not say that it is always because of greed. I said in the case of people being greedy and want to buy more junk that they do not need and thus get bank loans that they will not be able to pay back, it is their fault. Obviously things like medical treatment and paying rent are not more junk. There are people that take out loans to pay off debt from gambling, eating out all the time, smoking too much, drinking too much, going on shopping sprees, going on cruises, etc. Their credit rating might be great, and it might seem like they are perfectly capable of paying back the loan, but they might end up not being able to pay it back because they keep buying things that they do not really need. That is not always the case, but it happens quite a bit. In the cases where it is obvious that the person would not be able to pay the loan back, it is also the bank's fault.
I think that stores should not sell elderly people high-end computers when they only need them for e-mail and simple web browsing. I have seen that happen a few times. However, that usually happens when they do not go to multiple places and try to get the best deal. It is naive to think that they would be getting exactly what they want for the best price.
There are good people and bad people, but whatever kind of person it is, they should not always expect other people to make the right decisions for them, especially when it comes to consumer products. No matter how you or I might want all businesses to be honest and put the customers' best interests first, that is just wishful thinking. That is how life is, and it does not go easy on people just because they might be ignorant for whatever reason.
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"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter
The point of business is to make money, and that does not necessarily always mean putting the customers' best interests first. Most people should know that. It is pretty much common knowledge. People should do some research beforehand to make sure that they are getting a good deal. Even if they do not know what the specs mean, they can read other people's reviews to get a good idea if the product is of good quality and has a good price.
Would I be wrong to say you have somewhat black and white view of ethics? You're right that businesses are supposed to make money, and that shadiness is a part of the industry. But many would argue that such companies have an ethical responsibility to walk that fine line between making money and being fair to consumers. I'm just not for "blaming one side every time", because that rarely goes anywhere.
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There are good people and bad people, but whatever kind of person it is, they should not always expect other people to make the right decisions for them, especially when it comes to consumer products. No matter how you or I might want all businesses to be honest and put the customers' best interests first, that is just wishful thinking. That is how life is, and it does not go easy on people just because they might be ignorant for whatever reason.
The problem is companies often tell consumers that they WILL think for them. It preys on the trusting. When I was younger, I had no internet connection and no one knowledgeable to inform me about the things I wanted to purchase. So I believed what I was told cause I knew nothing, and assumed they did. I may've been ignorant, but a LOT of people are the same. Does it mean they deserve to be taken advantage of? And just because that's how life is, isn't how it necessarily should be. If people didn't speak out about things, nothing would ever change.
Would I be wrong to say you have somewhat black and white view of ethics? You're right that businesses are supposed to make money, and that shadiness is a part of the industry. But many would argue that such companies have an ethical responsibility to walk that fine line between making money and being fair to consumers. I'm just not for "blaming one side every time", because that rarely goes anywhere.
The problem is companies often tell consumers that they WILL think for them. It preys on the trusting. When I was younger, I had no internet connection and no one knowledgeable to inform me about the things I wanted to purchase. So I believed what I was told cause I knew nothing, and assumed they did. I may've been ignorant, but a LOT of people are the same. Does it mean they deserve to be taken advantage of? And just because that's how life is, isn't how it necessarily should be. If people didn't speak out about things, nothing would ever change.
They might have an ethical responsibility, and it is a problem when they ignore that responsibility, but my point is that people can not just assume that businesses will be fair and make the right choices for them. The businesses should not be tricking their customers, but their customers should also use some discretion.
I did not say that the ignorant deserve to be taken advantage of, but they will be at risk of being taken advantage of nevertheless, unless they either stop being ignorant, or the businesses are forced to be honest to their customers. I also did not say that this is the way things should be, but it is the way things are currently, and speaking out about it on a forum is very unlikely to change anything.
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"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter
They might have an ethical responsibility, and it is a problem when they ignore that responsibility, but my point is that people can not just assume that businesses will be fair and make the right choices for them.
That's right, but the thing is consumers do assume businesses are fair. These people just don't know better, no one's ever told them not to trust so and so or how to protect themselves. You know that the ignorant and uneducated far outweigh the intelligent.
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I did not say that the ignorant deserve to be taken advantage of, but they will be at risk of being taken advantage of nevertheless, unless they either stop being ignorant, or the businesses are forced to be honest to their customers.
You heavily implied in a prior post that it was almost always the consumers' fault for being ignorant, and that businesses shouldn't be blamed for taking advantage of them, since their whole purpose is to make money. Some people can't help being ignorant. It's not like they teach you safe shopping in elementary school. (.. Do they?) And many people know about certain subjects, but have a hard time grasping others. I would love if all people had the access to and capacity for knowledge that we do. But that won't be the case for a long time.
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I also did not say that this is the way things should be, but it is the way things are current, and speaking out about it on a forum is very unlikely to change anything.
Sure, a bunch of nobodies on a zune board isn't gonna do much, but if people wherever didn't fight for whatever they believed was right, nothing in the world would ever change.
That's right, but the thing is consumers do assume businesses are fair. These people just don't know better, no one's ever told them not to trust so and so or how do protect themselves. I honestly don't believe you or I represent the majority of consumers, but I do hope that does change.
You heavily implied in a prior post that it was almost always the consumers' fault for being ignorant, and that businesses shouldn't be blamed for taking advantage of them, since their whole purpose is to make money :
Sure, a bunch of nobodies on a zune board is gonna do anything, but if people where didn't fight for what they believed was right, nothing in the world every change.
Perhaps school should teach people that in case they somehow do not realize that businesses can be unfair.
Anyone can stop being as ignorant as they are if they really try. The problem is that most people do not try, so it is usually their fault for being ignorant. If they were not ignorant the first place, businesses would not have a chance to take advantage of them. Obviously, businesses that take advantage of them are also to blame for doing it in the first place.
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"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter
Perhaps school should teach people that in case they somehow do not realize that businesses can be unfair.
Lower ed doesn't always teach you to think for yourself, at least not when I was a kid.
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Anyone can stop being as ignorant as they are if they really try. The problem is that most people do not try, so it is usually their fault for being ignorant. If they were not ignorant the first place, businesses would not have a chance to take advantage of them. Obviously, businesses that take advantage of them are also to blame for doing it in the first place.
I think most people don't try because they don't realize they're ignorant. Can you cure yourself of a disease that you don't even know you have? No one knowledgeable would ever intentionally allow themselves to be taken advantage of. Sure there are are people who are just idiots and choose ignorance, but I don't believe they represent the whole, at least from my experience.
Interesting back and forth between Netrix and Aisorik.
@Aisorik: I work for a major financial services company. Businesses are not in business to be fair - they are in business to make money... period. The only reason that they are ethical at all is either 1) because it helps them to make more money, in the end (ie. gives them a positive outlook to the public, who in turn want to do business with them), or 2) because what they REALLY want to do is against the law and people don't want to go to jail. This is capitalism, for better or worse.
I would trust a retail store salesperson to sell me a PC about as much as I would trust a used car salesperson to sell me a good car. Always do your homework before you buy a PC, always do your homework before you buy a car, a home, or any major appliance. Maybe it sounds like I don't see people in a good light, but that's not the point. I'm sure the guy in Best Buy is a good person who would like to sell me what I actually need, vs whatever his boss told him to move off the shelves. But he has his quota to fill, and maybe a few mouths to feed at home. In the end, his needs are going to come before someone he's only met 5 minutes ago.
Lower ed doesn't always teach you to think for yourself, at least not when I was a kid.
I think most people don't try because they don't realize they're ignorant. Can you cure yourself of a disease that you don't even know you have? No one knowledgeable would ever intentionally allow themselves to be taken advantage of. Sure there are are people who are just idiots and choose ignorance, but I don't believe they represent the whole, at least from my experience.
this argument is getting waaaaay to in-depth lol
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"Because We're aliens, and that's how we roll." - Alec Baldwin
I work for a major financial services company. Businesses are not in business to be fair - they are in business to make money... period. The only reason that they are ethical at all is either 1) because it helps them to make more money, in the end (ie. gives them a positive outlook to the public, who in turn want to do business with them), or 2) because what they REALLY want to do is against the law and people don't want to go to jail. This is capitalism, for better or worse.
Oh I know. But like the example with laptops, when you don't walk the line, it's gonna hurt your image and you'll start losing consumers. (Ask casual consumers what they think about windows mobile or vista...) I really do wish businesses gave a **** though, and hopefully that will change in the wake of what's been happening. (Fat chance)
Oh I know. But like the example with laptops, when you don't walk the line, it's gonna hurt your image and you'll start losing consumers. (Ask casual consumers what they think about windows mobile or vista...) I really do wish businesses gave a **** though, and hopefully that will change in the wake of what's been happening. (Fat chance)
Im a casual consumer who does the occasional gaming on my Asus UX50 laptop. I love Vista. but Windows 7 is Hella Better!!!
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"Because We're aliens, and that's how we roll." - Alec Baldwin
Im a casual consumer who does the occasional gaming on my Asus UX50 laptop. I love Vista. but Windows 7 is Hella Better!!!
You're a gamer though, and your laptop is plenty powerful to handle Vista. (And I believe PC gamers aren't necessarily casual in the sense I referred to earlier)
