How many non-tech savvy consumers even know what a clean install is, let alone how to perform one? How many computer employees (think BB and ratshack) would even know if a laptop can accept a clean install and remain fully operational? It's not a big issue for guys like us, we're used to devoting time to get our PCs working the way we want. But the majority of casual consumers, they just want something to work proper out of the box.
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Originally Posted by Aisorik
^ You have too much faith in consumers. I have college kids in my class who don't even know how to get wi-fi to work, even with detailed instructions. History has shown that most people would rather throw more money at an issue than try and fix it themselves. (Hence, the reason why some are willing to pay Apple tax)
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Originally Posted by Aisorik
But many of them have to. Computers are pretty much required nowadays to communicate with other people and get information. My college actually requires all students to have a laptop.
If you can't fix the engine and change of the oil of a car yourself, does that mean you shouldn't be allowed to buy one?
If people have to use computers, then they should learn how to use them properly. Otherwise, undeserved blame gets put on software that does not spoon feed everyone and requires intelligent thought to use.
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"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter
^ I agree that PCs are not simple toys, and shouldn't be treated as such. But not all the blame is undeserved. Wanting to have a clean OS installed on a laptop, for example, is not the same as being spoonfed. It's just something that IMO should be there in the first place, same with good anti-virus software and other required basic apps. It's like being given your first ever ipod or zune, and it only works at half speed, a third of the basic functions are broken due to conflicts with useless pre-installed bloat, and most of the apps will only work with third-party accessories. You're a smart fella, so you can figure out how to get it up to scratch, but you still wonder why it didn't just come straight proper in the first place?
Computers are marketed to both tech and non-tech users. Hell the latter probably makes up the majority of sales. So stability, ease of use, and consistency should be damn near mandatory. Why do you think people eat up Apple marketing so well? "Shiny, white, and it just works!" (Relatively) Plus having a stable, bloat-less computer to start off with makes the learning process so much easier.
^ I agree that PCs are not simple toys, and shouldn't be treated as such. But not all the blame is undeserved. Wanting to have a clean OS installed on a laptop, for example, is not the same as being spoonfed. It's just something that IMO should be there in the first place, same with good anti-virus software and other required basic apps. It's like being given your first ever ipod or zune, and it only works at half speed, a third of the basic functions are broken due to conflicts with useless pre-installed bloat, and most of the apps will only work with third-party accessories. You're a smart fella, so you can figure out how to get it up to scratch, but you still wonder why it didn't just come straight proper in the first place?
Computers are marketed to both tech and non-tech users. Hell the latter probably makes up the majority of sales. So stability, ease of use, and consistency should be damn near mandatory. Why do you think people eat up Apple marketing so well? "Shiny, white, and it just works!" (Relatively) Plus having a stable, bloat-less computer to start off with makes the learning process so much easier.
Your claims seem exaggerated. I have never seen pre-installed software that makes a computer unusable. Non-tech users mostly just do simple things on their computers, such as word processing, Internet browsing, and chatting, so it should not matter if the pre-installed software slows their computer down a bit. Like you said, they usually have no clue about what the specs mean, so it if is a bit slower than it should be, they would not know any better.
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"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter
My friends, classmates, and I have. We've had laptops/pre-build PCs that would freeze up, have crashes, etc. until we tried to remove most of the bloat. A friend gave me her laptop and it was barely used. The thing would randomly crash, especially during stand-by. After a few days I decided to remove most of the bloat, and voila! No BSODs, and I've left it on standby for over a month with no issues.
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Non-tech users mostly just do simple things on their computers, such as word processing, Internet browsing, and chatting, so it should not matter if the pre-installed software slows their computer down a bit. Like you said, they usually have no clue about what the specs mean, so it if is a bit slower than it should be, they would not know any better.
But it can, particularly on those underpowered Vista machines I referred to earlier. My classmates would be installing software, and their laptops would just choke up. I remember I was transferring data onto my cousin's Vista (celeron, argh) and it eventually stopped responding completely. Those computers are slow already, and the added bloat can't be helping. Once again, we're talking about casual non-tech savvy consumers, so unintentionally getting underpowered computers is very common.
Am I exaggerating? Hell, maybe you're right, maybe the people I've encountered and stories I've heard come from the relative minority. But when you consider how many PC owners there, the minority can still be quite a few people.
We don't need no education!
We don't need no thought control,
No dark sarcasm in the classroom!
Teachers leave them kids alone,
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.
We don't need no education!
We don't need no thought control,
No dark sarcasm in the classroom!
Teachers leave them kids alone,
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.
Most people can turn on and do basic tasks with computers. They just don't know how to maintain them, fix problems, or have any idea what the specs mean.
thats why they have system mechanice pro. besides how hard can it be to clean out a computer do a defrag. thoes are simple and the comp tells you to do it. dont even need to do the more advanced stuff anymore because they have programs for that. also **** apple. people that work there hate using that crap too. and if you have apple then why get a zune? go buy crap-pod. ms dont want ur ass
like omg ur right apple is teh sux cuz its an apple not a music player lol. zune rulz teh world cuz ms saves babys from burnin buildingz and stuff and like whoah steve jobs dont do dat. i brought ipod to skool once and i got a wedgie but my zune made hawt girlz ask to have sex wit me all night oh serious ms roxxors bro
like omg ur right apple is teh sux cuz its an apple not a music player lol. zune rulz teh world cuz ms saves babys from burnin buildingz and stuff and like whoah steve jobs dont do dat. i brought ipod to skool once and i got a wedgie but my zune made hawt girlz ask to have sex wit me all night oh serious ms roxxors bro
wat?
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"Because We're aliens, and that's how we roll." - Alec Baldwin
I guess this Mac petition thread went into a totally different direction...
First, to the point of a Mac version of the Zune software. Since the legacy Zunes use proprietary MTPZ + DRM for ZunePass, it would probably require a bit of coding to get this to work. And with MacOS's marketshare, their bean counters probably crunched the numbers and realized the cost in would be lower than the profits gained. We know it's not because MS is boycotting the MacOS, given that they have Office on the Mac.
As for the long tangent in regards to MacOS vs Windows, I have my own opinion, of course. First, let's assume that your copy of Windows is bloatware free (you only have yourself to blame if you buy from an OEM that dumps all this crap on your new PC. Would you buy a refrigerator that came with advertisements all over it that you needed to pry off, after purchase?).
The hardware is the same, no matter what Apple marketing tells you. It's a PC with the same components, regardless of the vendor name on the case - Apple used to use PPC, but moved to the cheaper x86 platform a few years ago. As for MacOS vs Windows, it's apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned.
Stability - I would say that they are the same. Again, that's assuming a clean system with no adware / shareware / spyware. Apple likes to bring up BSOD's, but I can't remember the last one I've seen one of those.
Security - MacOS is BSD based, so it practices using accounts with low privileges. Windows is getting better, but app vendors still cause issues because they sometimes require admin rights. As for viruses, it's true that Windows is worse. But, Snow Leopard was released with an anti-malware program, so even Apple knows that they are not immune to this.
Applications - MacOS has a lot, but I don't think anyone will claim that it's more than the Windows platform. But, you just have to look at your needs, and then figure out the best OS for the job.
Lastly, the "I just want it to work" comment. Let's use the car comparison, as Aisorik mentioned. Would you prefer a car that's noticably more expensive, does not allow you open the hood for any reason, a bit flashier, and "seems" to be more stable and reliable that the other? Or, would you prefer the one that may not look as flashy (but is improving), is noticably LESS expensive, and can be just as reilable assuming you do some tweaks under the hood that are 1) allowed and 2) clearly documented on Internet sites and can be done in a fairly short amount of time? Oh, and don't forget that the second car allows you to travel on a large number of roads that the first car cannot. Which would YOU buy?
you only have yourself to blame if you buy from an OEM that dumps all this crap on your new PC. Would you buy a refrigerator that came with advertisements all over it that you needed to pry off, after purchase?
Not completely true, it's an issue of business ethics. Do companies and such have a responsibility to their consumers not to intentionally screw them in any way? (Okay, that was bad wording) It's like what happened with the banks (and correct me if I'm wrong): People were taking loans that they couldn't pay back, and banks were allowing them. Do you blame the people for going above their means or being too ignorant to realize they were; the banks for not turning them away for personal fear/gain; or even the govt for not regulating the banks enough? Or do you place the blame on all sides, to different extents?
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Would you prefer a car that's noticably more expensive, does not allow you open the hood for any reason, a bit flashier, and "seems" to be more stable and reliable that the other? Or, would you prefer the one that may not look as flashy (but is improving), is noticably LESS expensive, and can be just as reilable assuming you do some tweaks under the hood that are 1) allowed and 2) clearly documented on Internet sites and can be done in a fairly short amount of time? Oh, and don't forget that the second car allows you to travel on a large number of roads that the first car cannot. Which would YOU buy?
Ah, WE, the technologically inclined (or willing) will most likely choose the latter. But mom, grandpa, random college student, etc. may very well pick (and be happier) with the former. Apple and other similar companies have a made a name for themselves by targeting these casual non-tech consumers. (Albeit sometimes in a very douche-y way)
Not completely true, it's an issue of business ethics. Do companies and such have a responsibility to their consumers not to intentionally screw them in any way? (Okay, that was bad wording) It's like what happened with the banks (and correct me if I'm wrong): People were taking loans that they couldn't pay back, and banks were allowing them. Do you blame the people for going above their means or being too ignorant to realize they were; the banks for not turning them away for personal fear/gain; or even the govt for not regulating the banks enough? Or do you place the blame on all sides, to different extents?
I work in the financial industry, so my opinion will definitely be very subjective. I personally blame both sides - consumers for not educating themselves to be financially savvy, and the financial industry for their massive greed. But, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that you shouldn't live beyond your means.
It is a question of business ethics - DELL/HP/Lenovo put this crapware on their PC's to keep the prices down. But my point is that, in the 21st century, a consumer should have enough brains to understand what they are paying for. It's not too difficult to remove this garbage from your PC, as soon as you get it. Yes, it takes a little time and research, but it's worth it in the end. You don't even have to reinstall, just add/remove them (not as clean, but easier for a layman to understand).
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Originally Posted by Aisorik
Ah, WE, the technologically inclined (or willing) will most likely choose the latter. But mom, grandpa, random college student, etc. may very well pick (and be happier) with the former. Apple and other similar companies have a made a name for themselves by targeting these casual non-tech consumers. (Albeit sometimes in a very douche-y way)
I don't agree at all, and I'll explain why. The main problem with Apple systems is the premium you have to pay. For grandpa and the college kid who's on a budget, it's really not the best solution at all. I would argue that it's exactly the reason why they shouldn't be buying Apple products, because they are the ones who can't afford it. For grandpa, I would recommend Ubuntu because it works just as well for basic tasks like emails and web browsing, the cost is right (free) and you can actaully re-use old hardware which can save even more money. For the college student, I wouldn't recommend Linux because of possible compatiblity reasons, but I think Windows is just as good a solution. And if that college kid isn't techically savvy enough to know to avoid clicking on banner ads that give them viruses, then they don't belong in college.
But my point is that, in the 21st century, a consumer should have enough brains to understand what they are paying for. It's not too difficult to remove this garbage from your PC, as soon as you get it. Yes, it takes a little time and research, but it's worth it in the end. You don't even have to reinstall, just add/remove them (not as clean, but easier for a layman to understand).
I agree. I personally research everything I buy, and often learn the intricacies from reading and trial and error. I like that you have faith in the common man, but many consumers are ignorant, lazy, or don't have the means to obtain and take in information. The industry knows this, hell sometimes they bank on it.
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I don't agree at all, and I'll explain why. The main problem with Apple systems is the premium you have to pay. For grandpa and the college kid who's on a budget, it's really not the best solution at all.
Everything you said is logical, but logic doesn't always apply. People purchase Apple products because they "believe" they're functional (which they are to an extent), and become of the looks and status associated with them. Most of the college students I've met have low-end Windows laptops, but say they want a mac, even though they're not 100% sure why it's better. Some even go beyond their financial means to purchase one. (Though I hear used Macs sell very well) I believe when netbooks were first released, they often came in both Windows and linux or ubuntu or something flavors. And the latter models would often get returned and exchanged for the former, because people weren't familiar with the OS. It goes back to ignorance, people want to be told what to get and how to do things, and they'll veer towards whoever sounds the most convincing. Apple has the powerful marketing/advertising, the multi-platform ecosystem, and aesthetics. And luckily they're not complete ****, so I wouldn't necessarily feel bad recommending a mac to someone.
Alright, I just realized that paragraph didn't make much sense or have anything to do with anything. Sorry.
they should go back to sending letters to their pen pals instead of their buddy list
