Zune deployment tools & XNA GS EULA

[TheZMan]

There's been a couple of posts since the Zune software came out where people are creating tools to allow you to deploy games without using Visual Studio. This is something many of us have considered doing for the Xbox 360 part of XNA Game Studio but there are some reasons why its either impractical or in hot legal territory to do so.

#1 The files you need to automate the deployment do not come as part of the XNA redistributable. This means the only legal way to get them on the machine is a full XNA GS install, which means a full C# Express install. This requirement is enough to remove most of the reason for having a deployment too.

#2 If you choose to make copies of the required files and include them with your tool you will most likely be hearing from the Microsoft Legal team as its against the EUA you agreed to when you installed XNA GS. Its not a fun thing apparently. It would seem that its against forum rules to post or link to illegal content too.

#3 What if I don't use any files from GS and I work out how to do it all myself? Firstly good luck with that as its not a trivial task, and secondly its likely you would have to do some reverse engineering of the existing code - thats something else covered in the EULA and I'm no lawyer so I'm not going to debate the legality of that one. So I hope you have lots of money and a good lawyer ;-)

#4 If you are OK with the requirement of installing but you just want to hide the VS interface from people then this is OK. You need to automate MS Build and call the correct modules for deployment. However its likely that in a future release of GS 3.0 Microsoft will update the ccpack utility which does exactly this for you. Currently ccpack only works on the PC and the Xbox but enables you to send a .ccgame file to someone and it will deploy to the target platform. It was not implemented for the Zune CTP

#5 Many of us have thought about writing such a tool that didn't need VS installed but have not been able. If you want to see this change the you need to add a feature request to http://connect.microsoft.com. Or you can vote for the one I put in a long time ago
https://connect.microsoft.com/feedba...819&SiteID=226
and
https://connect.microsoft.com/feedba...820&SiteID=226
(Note that you need to be logged into connect to follow those links)

Finally - if anyone is working on a tool and wants me to check out the legality of it I will be more than happy to help. Drop me an email zman@thezbuffer.com.

[Spike!]

But...why would you want to Deploy games Without VS? It takes all of 30 seconds.

[TheZMan]

The main reason is to be able to send games to your friends who don't want to go through the hassles of installing VS and GS on their machines. If you are not a developer its really a waste of time and disk space.

[Tiptup300]

You could also make a home-made game distribution system.

Thanks ZMan, all last night I was messing with the files to allow me to put games on my zune. I did put a few files on the zune, but I couldn't add any games.

[TheZMan]

For the record - I'm not saying this is impossible to do if you are prepared to dig and have the expertise. I just want people to know what to be careful of.

[unknown005]

it sucks if there's no other way to deploy since my visual c# thing wants me to register before continuing to use it

[TheZMan]

Well you could always register it... its a free piece of software - use a throwaway email adress if you must.

Remember that the 3.0 is a CTP release - deisnged really to let DEVELOPERS get hold if it early to find bugs and usability issues. Its no unreasonable in those circumstances to no have to complete feature set nor to require c# express to be installed.

We are all hoping for better distribution for future betas and the final RTM in the holidays.

[Netrix]

Originally Posted by unknown005

it sucks if there's no other way to deploy since my visual c# thing wants me to register before continuing to use it

It is free to register that, by the way.

TheZMan, someone has done exactly that... They made a utility that allows you to deploy games to the Zune without needing VS or XNA GS. It's amazing. I tested it, and it works perfectly... even on Windows Vista Ultimate 64-bit.

[TheZMan]

Yes I'm well aware that people have built such tools. I've not looked at the latest one yet (is it released anywhere?). However so far I've not seen one that doesn't suffer from the EULA breaking techniques I mentioned above. I hope the one you tested does it all properly.

I'm not trying to stop people from doing this - I'm trying to make them do it right becuase a lawyer letter from Microsoft really puts a cramp in your day.

[Netrix]

Originally Posted by TheZMan

Yes I'm well aware that people have built such tools. I've not looked at the latest one yet (is it released anywhere?). However so far I've not seen one that doesn't suffer from the EULA breaking techniques I mentioned above. I hope the one you tested does it all properly.

I'm not trying to stop people from doing this - I'm trying to make them do it right becuase a lawyer letter from Microsoft really puts a cramp in your day.

Well, unfortunately I am not authorized to give out the link, but it is on the Internet somewhere.

If I already have the XNA GS files installed via a full install, even if the utility uses files from XNA GS, it would still be legal (for me) since I have legally obtained those files, right?

Also, if someone is given a utility that does break the EULA, but the person is completely unaware that it is breaking the EULA, doesn't it mean that the person is not legally liable, since they never agreed to the Microsoft EULA in the first place? Hypothetically, if they weren't aware that EULA protected content was contained in what they were given (black boxed), they should be free of any legal consequences.

I'm not necessarily saying that my previously referred to utility does break Microsoft's EULA.

[TheZMan]

Originally Posted by Netrix

If I already have the XNA GS files installed via a full install, even if the utility uses files from XNA GS, it would still be legal (for me) since I have legally obtained those files, right?

Yes its quite OK to make a tool that uses these files if they are already installed on a machine through legitimate means as long as you dont break some other aspect of the EULA. But it kind of misses the point of the tools purpose.

Also, if someone is given a utility that does break the EULA, but the person is completely unaware that it is breaking the EULA, doesn't it mean that the person is not legally liable, since they never agreed to the Microsoft EULA in the first place? Hypothetically, if they weren't aware that EULA protected content was contained in what they were given (black boxed), they should be free of any legal consequences.

Your logic seems reasonable to me ;-) But really this would be one for the lawyers to decide and I'm not a lawyer.

My original post is there for the tool writers not end users.

[Netrix]

Originally Posted by TheZMan

My original post is there for the tool writers not end users.

I see. Well I refrained from stating whether or not the deployment tool that I tested broke the EULA or not because I wasn't sure, but I just talked to the creator and he assures me that his tool is independent of VS and XNA. He really is a genius. It seems like it was a ton of work.

[unknown005]

wait, what, free? i need to read more XD