The power of wireless

[Zeek]

So does anyone think in the near future we will able to freely use the wireless to get internet capability for the zune, I mean that would be awesome, instead of having to find someone with a zune next to you, you could just get online and look for people. I mean that would be a big step for the zune.

[Khao]

It's impossible right now because the XNA framework blocks us from doing this I surely hope the XNA developpement team have received this request and are considering it right now because it would be incredible. We need a little something to make the Zune competitive with other products (iTouch anybody?) so wireless would definitively make a BIIIIIG step forward.

[SimReality]

That's not true. It's not XNA's fault you don't have access to the internet. It's impossible because the Zune firmware has absolutely no idea what the internet is. All the chipset is programmed to do is connect to up to 7 other Zunes or to a PC via wifi to sync. The Zune team would have to add in the internet bits before the XNA team could add in the APIs for it.

I do think it would be cool to have and hope they add it someday, but I don't see it happening any time soon. My main logic is that surfing the web with that Zune pad input device would suck. A lot. The iPod Touch and iPhone work great because they have the big touch screen and on-screen keyboard that makes it much easier to navigate. Once the Zune gets another couple revisions maybe they'll have a device ready for the internet.

[Khao]

I don't think it's impossible, if the Zune has the software and firmware to connect to a computer trough wi-fi, it's possible to connect to the internet with the same wi-fi. It uses the same protocols (either TCP or UDP), the same connection and encryption algorithms, the same way to send and receive data but instead of doing it with a computer at a certain address on the router, it would do so with a computer with a different address on the internet.

I don't like the idea of doing a browser either, but think of this for internet developpement! Having game highscores online, finding partners for games online instead of with had-oc wi-fi, why not just reading your mail or favorite RSS feeds? Configure the 'app' to have your favorite links in it and then the only thing left is connect to the internet and display those feeds. No need for touchy on-screen keyboards for those kind of games of apps, even with internet.

[SimReality]

Right, but without firmware support for hitting remote locations, you won't be able to send or receive those data packets. The firmware is only configured to find other Zunes within range or sync to a PC running the Zune software. Without that low-level support, there is nothing the XNA framework can do. There is no access to the raw, low-level networking so there's not even a way for a game to implement it's own system. And there will also never be that low-level of an API in XNA so this is just something that the Zune team has to do.

But I agree that there's little point to surfing the web on a Zune. Maybe it'd be nice for a simple headline RSS feed. Or doing games online. But surfing the web would suck on the Zune.

[cable729]

that would be awesome, and open a whole new world for hacks

[SimReality]

Low level access like that isn't going to happen. The closer to the metal you get, the more security implications you have to account for. By staying at a high level like XNA is, not only is it easier to program with, but it's also a lot easier for them to control the security of the device. Best we can hope is that someday the Zune team will upgrade the firmware (possibly for some sort of Zune marketplace on the go) and then the XNA team can look into leveraging that for the API. I wouldn't hold your breath and it's likely to take a long time if it ever happens. I think a much more interesting piece would simply be letting my Zune game talk to a Windows game. Then you can do all sorts of fun things (uploading high scores, channeling games to the internet yourself using the PC as a proxy, etc).

I'm actually more excited about the future prospect of linking my Zune game with either a Windows or Xbox 360 game than about having direct internet access from the Zune. There are all sorts of things then you could do from using the Zune as a controller to using the Zune as an extra screen (rear-view mirror for racing game, anyone?). I think considering the Zune can already connect to a LAN and find a PC, the odds of this happening are significantly higher than the internet access. However this is all great to hope for it, but who knows if the team even plans to do any of it?

[Zeek]

Well ya I mean, the zune is already preconfigured to connect to your computer wirelessly so it's connected to your wireless hub all the time. You just wouldn't be able to go some random place and connect to the internet. Hopefully MS considers it.

[Khao]

I don't get why you think it's impossible.. If the chip can connect to a wi-fi hotspot, send and receive data, we only need the right software that uses that chip, so I think it's perfectly plausible for the XNA to support wi-fi internet in a future release.

[SimReality]

The XNA framework would have to then implement all sorts of low level understanding of internet protocols and such. This is not their job; it's that of the Zune team to implement. If the underlying firmware does not inherently know about these protocols (which it doesn't currently), there is no functionality for the XNA team to expose without having to implement what should be a firmware addition. Then you still have to take into account that they would have to get this approved by a legal team and the Zune team before it could ship which would be a resource nightmare (in terms of man-hours and money spent on doing that). I'm not saying it's impossible, but unless the Zune team implements it into their firmware, I will pretty much guarantee you won't see it in the XNA framework.

[Spike!]

Originally Posted by SimReality

The XNA framework would have to then implement all sorts of low level understanding of internet protocols and such. This is not their job; it's that of the Zune team to implement. If the underlying firmware does not inherently know about these protocols (which it doesn't currently), there is no functionality for the XNA team to expose without having to implement what should be a firmware addition. Then you still have to take into account that they would have to get this approved by a legal team and the Zune team before it could ship which would be a resource nightmare (in terms of man-hours and money spent on doing that). I'm not saying it's impossible, but unless the Zune team implements it into their firmware, I will pretty much guarantee you won't see it in the XNA framework.

And, as you already pointed out, noone is going to spend that much time and money making a device with only a D-pad/Touch-pad for input Internet capable. Unless MS comes up with some keyboard that plugs into the port on the bottom of the zune or something. Which would just be ridiculous. I think people are forgetting the Zune isn't a PDA.

[Omnidragon]

Khao I think you are getting 2 things mixed up. Being the XNA team and the Zune team. The XNA team write a middleware for us to interface with the firmware. XNA does not interface with the hardware directly in other words it has to use the firmware to do any thing.

So if the firmware doesn't support a feature XNA cannot support that feature regards of the fact that the hardware itself can support that feature.

please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong on this Nick

[Khao]

But when you deploy something new to the Zune, you are deploying a bunch of dll's and things for the game or application you are adding (they show up on the Zune's screen when they are uploading) , that are kind of being added to the firmware.. no? I believe dll files are more low-lvl than C# and can interact a little more with hardware stuff (but I haven't worked with dlls a lot so I'm just guessing)

Could there be a way to do this using that method? (with much speculation here)

[SimReality]

Those DLLs are not part of the firmware, no. They are simply a bunch of libraries that you get to use that wrap functionality of the hardware/firmware. Therefore if the firmware does not support internet protocols, there is no way for the XNA framework to support it.

[MarcusMaximus]

actually, all you'd have to do is frame the packets with the correct ip address to do it which XNA already touches. XNA already fully forms the packets(in fact you have the power to do this yourself, though it still limits you to sending to zunes) so all they'd have to do is form them correctly to send to a remote host. There really isn't any difference between syncing with a computer through a router and accessing a remote server through that same router, they both have to use the ip address of the computer.

[SimReality]

Sure, but the firmware does not support arbitrary IP addresses. It only supports other Zunes and machines on the same local network as it. Until the firmware gets updated, you will not be able to reach out to the internet from your Zune.

[Zeek]

Yes you do have a IP when you set up wireless sync so your already setup that far, so why can't we push it further? I mean they are already thinking about putting it so you can adjust the light, so that may unlock more stuff.

[SimReality]

The Zune only allows IPs it finds on a local network running the Zune software. There is no mechanism in there for setting IPs outside of that local network or else why wouldn't you already be able to wirelessly sync over the internet with your PC?

Fact is that this feature is not coming. The Zune does not support internet communication at this time and until the Zune team provides that functionality, the XNA framework cannot implement it. Things like the backlight are already supported on the Zune which is why it's easy for the framework to utilize them. Access to the internet is not. We just have to wait and see.

If you really think you have a convincing case for why the internet is useful on the Zune, make a Windows version of the game (just set the window to 240x320) and do it there where you have full internet access (using the System.Net libraries). The Zune team and XNA team are not going to just add in this added security risk for no reason. So show them that reason and maybe they'll prioritize this feature.

[Ricardo Dawkins]

ppl: seriously, if you want internet on a DAP get an Archos, a Cowon or *cough* iPod Touch. End of discussion.

[SimReality]

Indeed. Also the iPod Touch/iPhone SDK looks fantastic (except for having to use Objective-C :p). I'm tempted to grab an iPhone just so I can make some games for that. Imagine Scrambled Albums with touch controls.