Should we outlaw abortion?

[David]

Originally Posted by sonicgeek

It's a problem. It's ruining America. Teens decide they don't have to care about getting pregnant cuz they can have an abortion and never have kids to worry about. They can go on with their selfish lives (from selfish decisions, not rape/incest/whatever) and kill their children.

that's a non-existent problem that is only circumstantial... teens don't just go out and have abortions...

do you have a single statistic?

besides... like what fez said, it's better to educate than to ban

why take away someone's freedom when you can just teach them that it's wrong?

you sounded like an evil dictator just now too... just so you know...

[sonicgeek]

and killing a child is a lot better, right.......

[Dizzy]

I haven't read through all these, but it kinda sucks knowing that 1/3 of our generation ended up in the trashcan

Could have been a future leader, scientist, my wife...

It's a sad world when we look at a house and say it has "so much potential" but we look at a fetus and it's just a burden, an unwanted side-effect.

Not every abortion is a result of rape, you know...

[David]

Originally Posted by sonicgeek

and killing a child is a lot better, right.......

I said that educating was better than banning... I never said killing the child was the only solution.

I'm just saying that we shouldn't ban abortion. never said that killing the fetus was the right thing to do.

Some people said earlier that if the mother was going to die if she tried to give birth... yeah I just now realized that they could just get a c-section.

so... anyway just thought I'd add that to the mix.

I just really don't like the idea of banning something that isn't a problem.

you can claim that all that potential is lost in those babies... but that's not true... it literally gives more opportunity to the babies that weren't aborted.

[zjr8]

Well I think that the person carrying the child has the right to choose if they want an abortion or not. In my liberal views are towards pro-choice (I am Canadian) an embryo does not really meet the requirements of person hood (to be a person), biologically they are humans but they are not technically people with rights. Depending on the stage of development the embryo is consciousness (only because it CAN feel pain, but only after the 20 week mark when the nervous system begins to function... no system no pain) but it lacks the ability to reason and comprehend so one could argue that you could possibly not comprehend what pain is as to a embryo it would just be an electrical signal. On another note you could consider the embryo a parasite that is unwanted just like a tapeworm which I doubt you would debate about removing if you had one inside of you.

On another note my town in Ontario is pretty crappy we have the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Ontario and the second or third in Canada (can not remember off the top of my head). Abortions are a great helper in my town, as well if the person is not going to have to be a mother or father they can finish school and have a real life, because without a high school diploma you can not even keep your drivers license in Ontario anymore. Now you could say get daycare for your newborn instead of an abortion but because of board cuts there is no in school daycare for the child if it was born and the area is rather poor which makes daycare 5 days a week unrealistic for a lot of people. This just makes abortion more appealing. Last time I looked parental consent was not required for an abortion and that doctor patient confidentiality was still in effect so that is even more reason to say that abortion is okay and is socially acceptable.


Sorry for the poorly constructed response and if I just restated the whole debate again sorry I did not have time to read all 5 pages

Just a few graphs to show some statistics





I know the second graph is from statics from the UK but it shows that most abortions were preformed before the 20 week mark, the CNS does not start to function till that point which mains the embryo would not feel pain

[David]

pretty nice argument.

it seems like I was wrong and people don't get many abortions for non selfish reasons.

they just can't afford a baby lol.

but I have to question how they go about finding this info for these statistics. because Every abortion is "to end childbearing, or remain child free"

so if I was filling out some stupid chart of course that's the first thing I would see and say "that's pretty much the reason"

[sonicgeek]

Originally Posted by gold.n.god

you can claim that all that potential is lost in those babies... but that's not true... it literally gives more opportunity to the babies that weren't aborted.

Sure it does, at the cost of someone elses life. If people started aborting children to open up opportunities for those who aren't aborted, the guilt would hit hard on the children who weren't aborted. Think of what they were thinking, someone else got killed just so they can have a job/education/whatever.

[David]

that would be true in some cases

but I never said that we should start aborting babies to open up more opportunity lol...

it's just one good thing that can come from abortion that I mentioned.

I don't feel guilty because I wasn't aborted... do you feel guilty because you were one of the chosen to live?

[sonicgeek]

I don't feel guilty because I wasn't chosen over someone else, nobody else was killed because I seemed "more convenient" or "more desirable".

[David]

would you feel guilty if your brother/sister was aborted?

I don't think people feel a connection with others unless they know them... so i don't think most people would feel guilty because of an abortion.

If I was in that situation where my brothers and sisters were being aborted and if i did feel guilty, then I would not choose abortion in the future.

I'm sure if anyone felt guilty about their siblings being aborted that they wouldn't choose it for their kids...

so guilt isn't really that big of a deal considering that it would only last one generation.

[Thrax]

Originally Posted by Chiups

So then, assuming that you eat meat. The beef and pork you eat, were those animals murdered too?

it's as simple as this I view life the way God want's me to view life through the guidance of the Bible,now I know alot of people that tell me or ask me if I choose to view life that way because I can't think for my self.......absolutly not I still have freedom of choice I just choose to let Jehovah God guid me and do with me as he wills,and thats why I see Abortion as murder simple as that. Now in the bible God says that the animals on this earth where put here not only as a food source....today animals are used in variuos ways like for example fat is used to make body soap,cow dung is used for plant fertalizer.

sry i veered off the subject but it's just an example of why I think the way I do.

[David]

yeah I don't think that religion should really be a part of this argument...

because church and state are supposed to be separate... but using religious views to back your argument can't be helped.

[Chiups]

[EndUnknown]

Originally Posted by gold.n.god

yeah I don't think that religion should really be a part of this argument...

because church and state are supposed to be separate... but using religious views to back your argument can't be helped.

I disagree. separation of church and state means that the state can't control the church(set up a national religion) and the church cant control the state, but the people inside of each can influence. A governor can try to convince his church to change doctrinal views, and a church can try to convince people that Proposition 2 is bad.

[sonicgeek]

Precisely! This is a democracy, if most of us are Christians in the US then why do people freak out when we say "Under God" in the pledge. Anyway people should stop being morons and usin'g the phrase "seperation of church and state" then claiming it's in the Constitution. IT'S NOT!! The phrase is from some letter, we don't even know who wrote the letter, and it's still debated who it was to. So using "Seperation of church and state" is an uneducated argument.

[putis]

Originally Posted by sonicgeek

So using "Seperation of church and state" is an uneducated argument.

You really need to at least do some research before talking about things of which you have no idea.

Originally Posted by wikipedia.org

The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment of the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. The phrase was then quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to popular and political discussion of the concept, including criticism that it overstates the limits created under the Constitution.

Also,

Originally Posted by wikipedia.org

The United States Supreme Court has referenced the separation of church and state metaphor more than 25 times, first in 1878. In the Reynolds case the Court defended marriage as between a man and a woman and denied the free exercise claims of Mormons in the Utah territory. The Court used the metaphor again in 1947 when it was used by Justice Hugo Black in Everson. The term was used and defended heavily by the Court until the early 1970s. Since that time, the Court has distanced itself from the metaphor, often suggesting the metaphor conveys hostility to religion in contrast to Jefferson's original meaning "...in behalf of the rights of [religious] conscience." In Wallace v. Jaffree, Justice Rehnquist presented the view that the establishment clause was intended to protect local establishments of religion from federal interference-- a view which diminished the strong separation views of the Court. Justice Scalia has criticized the metaphor as a bulldozer removing religion from American public life.

Originally Posted by sonicgeek

Precisely! This is a democracy, if most of us are Christians in the US then why do people freak out when we say "Under God" in the pledge.

It's really quite simple, because a lot of people are not Christian, and/or don't believe in God.

[David]

Originally Posted by rock4christ

I disagree. separation of church and state means that the state can't control the church(set up a national religion) and the church cant control the state, but the people inside of each can influence. A governor can try to convince his church to change doctrinal views, and a church can try to convince people that Proposition 2 is bad.

Originally Posted by gold.n.god

yeah I don't think that religion should really be a part of this argument...

because church and state are supposed to be separate... but using religious views to back your argument can't be helped.

I never said that we weren't allowed to use the churches' influence, I only said we should try to leave it directly out... meaning don't bring it up...

ok back on subject:

Originally Posted by thread title

should we outlaw abortion?

no, we shouldn't

why?

because there's no reason to

but innocent people are dieing

innocent people die every day, it's a part of life

yeah both those people aren't chosen to die

sure they are... someone chooses to talk on their cell phone while they drive
someone chooses to do almost everything that kills someone.

yeah but those people get punished if someone is hurt because of their choices

that's only because the death of the victim effects people... The death of an un-born infant doesn't effect anyone. therefore it's not a problem

but it's wrong to kill anything... even if nothing bad happens because of it.

that's an opinion that some people do not agree with. Those people who don't agree have just as much right to choose abortion as your do to try to make it illegal.

... but abortion is wrong

... this argument is over.

[Thrax]

Originally Posted by gold.n.god

yeah I don't think that religion should really be a part of this argument...

because church and state are supposed to be separate... but using religious views to back your argument can't be helped.

i dont apply that to me becaus