Christian Homophobia

[J2800]

I think that Christians in general are too homophobic, they need to just agree to disagree and not freak out "OHMYWORD YOU SINNING BASTARD"...

[Netrix]

I actually agree with you. Sometimes they really need to mind their own business.

[J2800]

Thanks Net. I think they should be able to think what they want about gays, but they should really try not to come off as jerks and bigots (ie dont talk about it).

[Marshillboy]

This was actually the focus of a seminar awhile back at one of the churches I attend. It involved a few outspoken Christians who were also gay to express their previous experiences and concerns regarding reckoning Christianity and the gay community/lifestyle/etc. They said that people at their previous churches told them they weren't going to heaven, or need to top sinning and repent. Regardless of who they are and what they believe, people can be serious dicks some times.

[BroiledVictory]

Most of the people I know that say that, aren't Christian(As in, they themselves call themselves athiests)

[ChurchedAtheist]

Originally Posted by SmileDog

Most of the people I know that say that, aren't Christian(As in, they themselves call themselves athiests)

O.o

not to say you are lying, but that seems VERY unlikely, as the godless community is almost universally pro LBGT rights. This usually stems from compassion and empathy, or at the very least a 'why SHOULDN'T they?' viewpoint.


sidepoint:shouldn't this be in Religion?

[Charge]

Moved.

[daxspark]

You must know some crappy christians. I don't know about the spinoff groups, but I know Catholicism definitely doesn't teach that being gay means you're a sinner. Its all in how you manifest it. Sex before marriage IS a sin, but its a sin for everyone. The only thing is gay people, by definition, cannot be married because to be married requires the potential for children. So, any sex they have is sex before marriage => sin. This doesn't mean they can't make out or live together or love each other, it just means they cant have sex with each other. That's not homophobia.

[ChurchedAtheist]

Originally Posted by daxspark

You must know some crappy christians. I don't know about the spinoff groups, but I know Catholicism definitely doesn't teach that being gay means you're a sinner.

I don't know about the last ~10 years, but I was taught, as a catholic child, that it was an abomination, and the verses of paul that list it alongside drunkeness were quoted.

Originally Posted by daxspark

Its all in how you manifest it. Sex before marriage IS a sin, but its a sin for everyone. The only thing is gay people, by definition, cannot be married because to be married requires the potential for children. So, any sex they have is sex before marriage => sin.

so, because a couple are sterile they can't be married? they cant have kids, therefore they cant be married.

Originally Posted by daxspark

This doesn't mean they can't make out or live together or love each other, it just means they cant have sex with each other. That's not homophobia.

ok. because the woman you love is of a different race, you two cant marry or have sex. does that sound fair?

[Gow]

Originally Posted by ChurchedAtheist

so, because a couple are sterile they can't be married? they cant have kids, therefore they cant be married.

Nope, sterility is not in the rule book. However, if you are paralysed, and thus cannot consummate the marriage you couldn't get married, but that has changed.

Well, they are free to make up their own rules, and define their own beliefs.

Just like we are free to define our beliefs or lack thereof.

Nobody says membership is mandatory... unless you are faced with a religion that has a habit of stoning non-members.

[Netrix]

Originally Posted by daxspark

You must know some crappy christians. I don't know about the spinoff groups, but I know Catholicism definitely doesn't teach that being gay means you're a sinner. Its all in how you manifest it. Sex before marriage IS a sin, but its a sin for everyone. The only thing is gay people, by definition, cannot be married because to be married requires the potential for children. So, any sex they have is sex before marriage => sin. This doesn't mean they can't make out or live together or love each other, it just means they cant have sex with each other. That's not homophobia.

You are right, it is just plain discrimination.

Also, what definition are you talking about?

Main Entry: mar·riage
Pronunciation: ˈmer-ij, ˈma-rij
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Anglo-French, from marier to marry
Date: 14th century
1 a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage> b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage

[daxspark]

Originally Posted by ChurchedAtheist

I don't know about the last ~10 years, but I was taught, as a catholic child, that it was an abomination, and the verses of paul that list it alongside drunkeness were quoted.

You don't have to take everything the bible says literally. It does have human error in it.

Originally Posted by ChurchedAtheist

so, because a couple are sterile they can't be married? they cant have kids, therefore they cant be married.

Nope. They can be married because there's still the potential. Miracles happen everyday.

Originally Posted by ChurchedAtheist

ok. because the woman you love is of a different race, you two cant marry or have sex. does that sound fair?

i dont see how being a different race means you can't marry someone.

Originally Posted by Netrix

You are right, it is just plain discrimination.

Also, what definition are you talking about?

Its not discrimination because no one is allowed to have sex before marriage.

Heres the definition from the Catechism where it talks about sacraments. Its actually interesting if you want to read the whole thing.

ARTICLE 7
THE SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY

1601 "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."

I hope this clears up some misconceptions.

[roebeet]

Actually, I feel that Christians can have whatever opinions they like (assuming it doesn't hurt anyone). Just because some of you believe that homosexuality is OK doesn't mean that everyone should automatically feel the same way you do.

What burns me up about same-sex unions is that they don't get the same financial breaks that married couples do. That has nothing to do with religion and I find it completely unfair. They should also get the same rights within society in general (example would be the same rights as any spouse would have to make medical decisions, if their partner is in the hospital and unresponsive). But, Christians do not have to agree with their way of life if they don't want to.

[ChurchedAtheist]

Originally Posted by daxspark

You don't have to take everything the bible says literally. It does have human error in it.

alright, im going to take the 'existence of a god' part figuratively. am i not destroying the writings intent?

Originally Posted by daxspark

Nope. They can be married because there's still the potential. Miracles happen everyday.

lesbian women can have kids through fertilization and genetic manipulation.

Originally Posted by daxspark

i dont see how being a different race means you can't marry someone.

race is as valid a reason to arbitrarily restrict marriage.

[Netrix]

Originally Posted by daxspark

Nope. They can be married because there's still the potential. Miracles happen everyday.

Its not discrimination because no one is allowed to have sex before marriage.

Do you know what "sterile" means? It means they can not have kids, which means there is no potential.

Having an arbitrary restriction (such as the need to be able to have kids) that prevents a certain group of people from having the same rights as everyone else is discrimination. It would be just like saying you have to pay $50,000 to get married. By your reasoning, since everyone would have to pay $50,000, it would not be discrimation against the poor or lower class.

Originally Posted by roebeet

Actually, I feel that Christians can have whatever opinions they like (assuming it doesn't hurt anyone). Just because some of you believe that homosexuality is OK doesn't mean that everyone should automatically feel the same way you do.

What burns me up about same-sex unions is that they don't get the same financial breaks that married couples do. That has nothing to do with religion and I find it completely unfair. They should also get the same rights within society in general (example would be the same rights as any spouse would have to make medical decisions, if their partner is in the hospital and unresponsive). But, Christians do not have to agree with their way of life if they don't want to.

The problem is when they go further than simply having opinions and try to force their restrictions on everyone else.

[BroiledVictory]

Originally Posted by ChurchedAtheist

O.o

not to say you are lying, but that seems VERY unlikely, as the godless community is almost universally pro LBGT rights. This usually stems from compassion and empathy, or at the very least a 'why SHOULDN'T they?' viewpoint.


sidepoint:shouldn't this be in Religion?

You do know I live in Seattle, the most unchurched city in the U.S.A. right?

I actually think in some ways, it's a trend. (As in, they believe it, why don't I?)Yes, homosexuals have always been looked down upon.

[daxspark]

The thing about the bible is you have to think while reading it and discern what is added by humans and what is the general outline provided by God. Obviously the part about God being real is true, but when you come across a story like Noah and the Arc it should occur to you that maybe it was exagerated to make a point. Look for the general message of the bible, not specific stories.

-_- yes i know what sterile means. do you know what "miracle" means?

And saying that there has to be a potential for children isn't arbitrary like paying $50,000 because paying $50,000 doesn't spread the word of God but having educated children does.

[Netrix]

Originally Posted by daxspark

-_- yes i know what sterile means. do you know what "miracle" means?

And saying that there has to be a potential for children isn't arbitrary like paying $50,000 because paying $50,000 doesn't spread the word of God but having educated children does.

Why could it not be a miracle for a man to have a child? Miracles are all about impossible things happening, after all.

So a couple must be punished if they are not able to spread the word of God by having children? I understand what you are saying and the reason behind it. The problem is that it is unfair to certain people when it is not even necessary. The importance of spreading the word of God is very subjective.

[roebeet]

Originally Posted by Netrix

The problem is when they go further than simply having opinions and try to force their restrictions on everyone else.

Agreed.

[daxspark]

Originally Posted by Netrix

Why could it not be a miracle for a man to have a child? Miracles are all about impossible things happening, after all.

So a couple must be punished if they are not able to spread the word of God by having children? I understand what you are saying and the reason behind it. The problem is that it is unfair to certain people when it is not even necessary. The importance of spreading the word of God is very subjective.

I understand where you're coming from too. It seems that gay people should be able to marry because their love is just as valid as everyone else's. The hang-up is that the church views marriage as more than two people who love each other very much. Marriage as it was set up by Christ is between a man and a women, and, as previously mentioned, supposed to provide for the possibilty of children. Therefore, in the church's eyes, why should gay people even want to get married? They simply don't match they requirements. I understand the answer is because they want to have sex, but that brings up a whole different issue on what the purpose of sex is, and its not just pleasure or a sign of love to another person. We talk about this A LOT in school, so I don't really want to talk about it here, I was just trying to make the point that true Christians (or at least Catholics) are not just homophobic snobs. They aren't even the least bit adverse to gay people. They have 1000s of years of tradition and sound dogmatic arguments for their beliefs on marriage and sex; they're not just scared of gay people.

Granted, I will admit it is hard to find a Christian who actually believes and practices this. I have met a lot of homophobic christians too, and that is why i try to be more accepting towards gay people b/c it gets on my nerves too lol