Who gets a "free pass" to heaven?

[MackinawTJ]

I'm an atheist who is interested in discussing/debating religion.

By "free pass" I mean, get into heaven even though they do not repent.

Let's say that there is a civilization of people that live on a remote island. They don't know anything about god because their civilization is isolated, let's say they don't even know the outside world exists and the outside world doesn't know they exist. I know it's highly unlikely, but remember this is purely hypothetical. So anyway, no one's told them about god, so they don't repent, accept jesus, nothing. Do they get a free pass to heaven because it's not their fault that they didn't know? I mean, how could they possibly have known if no one on the island knows anything about god? How does that work?

Also, how about young children, do they get a free pass because they are too young to know about religion? If so, when's the cutoff to get into heaven this way?

How about the mentally disabled, who may not be able to comprehend the concept of god?

And how about animals? I have heard some christians say yes, animals do go to heaven. Other christians have said they have no soul. If animals go to heaven, do all living creatures go to heaven. Like plants?

Who else gets a "free pass"? Or does no one?

I'm curious.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MackinawTJ

I'm an atheist who is interested in discussing/debating religion.

By "free pass" I mean, get into heaven even though they do not repent.

Let's say that there is a civilization of people that live on a remote island. They don't know anything about god because their civilization is isolated, let's say they don't even know the outside world exists and the outside world doesn't know they exist. I know it's highly unlikely, but remember this is purely hypothetical. So anyway, no one's told them about god, so they don't repent, accept jesus, nothing. Do they get a free pass to heaven because it's not their fault that they didn't know? I mean, how could they possibly have known if no one on the island knows anything about god? How does that work?

Also, how about young children, do they get a free pass because they are too young to know about religion? If so, when's the cutoff to get into heaven this way?

How about the mentally disabled, who may not be able to comprehend the concept of god?

And how about animals? I have heard some christians say yes, animals do go to heaven. Other christians have said they have no soul. If animals go to heaven, do all living creatures go to heaven. Like plants?

Who else gets a "free pass"? Or does no one?

I'm curious.

Well, I have to got to work at the moment, but I promise I'll get to this question and the ones in the other topic tonight.

[Dark616]

Originally Posted by MackinawTJ

I'm an atheist who is interested in discussing/debating religion.

By "free pass" I mean, get into heaven even though they do not repent.

Let's say that there is a civilization of people that live on a remote island. They don't know anything about god because their civilization is isolated, let's say they don't even know the outside world exists and the outside world doesn't know they exist. I know it's highly unlikely, but remember this is purely hypothetical. So anyway, no one's told them about god, so they don't repent, accept jesus, nothing. Do they get a free pass to heaven because it's not their fault that they didn't know? I mean, how could they possibly have known if no one on the island knows anything about god? How does that work?

Also, how about young children, do they get a free pass because they are too young to know about religion? If so, when's the cutoff to get into heaven this way?

How about the mentally disabled, who may not be able to comprehend the concept of god?

And how about animals? I have heard some christians say yes, animals do go to heaven. Other christians have said they have no soul. If animals go to heaven, do all living creatures go to heaven. Like plants?

Who else gets a "free pass"? Or does no one?

I'm curious.

Im unsure about the remote civilization, but young children would go to heaven, because, as you said, they are mentally unable to understand it yet. the cutoff is whenever you CAN understand. same for the mentally disabled. animals dont have souls(unless I missed that in the bible) and would not go to heaven.

[AquaToad]

i have thought of this before, and i think that they would go to heaven. as long as they wernt some tribal serial killer or something

[MackinawTJ]

Locke- Whenever you have some free time is cool, don't rush. Thanks for answering before, too.

Dark616- Thanks for answering. Also, another question for you. What if a child can comprehend god, but no one tells him/her about religion and they are incapable of finding out themsleves (too young for internet or books or anything). Are they still to blame, will they still go to hell because they are at the age that they can understand god?

AquaToad- Tribal serial killers? Nice lol that made me laugh. It's possible though. How about if they are the kind of tribal people that sacrifice, or actually, how about if they just do not follow the ten commandments or anything the bible says because they have never read one? They do things that may seem immoral only because of tribe tradition, it's what their family taught them.

[Dark616]

If they can comprehend, but are never told, then it is the same as remote island, and I don't know.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MackinawTJ

I'm an atheist who is interested in discussing/debating religion.

By "free pass" I mean, get into heaven even though they do not repent.

Let's say that there is a civilization of people that live on a remote island. They don't know anything about god because their civilization is isolated, let's say they don't even know the outside world exists and the outside world doesn't know they exist. I know it's highly unlikely, but remember this is purely hypothetical. So anyway, no one's told them about god, so they don't repent, accept jesus, nothing. Do they get a free pass to heaven because it's not their fault that they didn't know? I mean, how could they possibly have known if no one on the island knows anything about god? How does that work?

Also, how about young children, do they get a free pass because they are too young to know about religion? If so, when's the cutoff to get into heaven this way?

How about the mentally disabled, who may not be able to comprehend the concept of god?

And how about animals? I have heard some christians say yes, animals do go to heaven. Other christians have said they have no soul. If animals go to heaven, do all living creatures go to heaven. Like plants?

Who else gets a "free pass"? Or does no one?

I'm curious.

Well, actually, your first scenario is hardly unlikely. We find tribes previously isolated from the world often enough. But unfortunately, there is no "free pass" to Heaven, or at least, not in the way you mean it; technically, the system we've got is already a free pass, becuase there is nothing to we can do to gain our own salvation, because it is a free gift from God. Now, as to what would happen to these tribal people: they would not be saved. The reason is because there are two kinds of "revelation," two ways in which we know God. The first is special revelation. Special revelation is direct communication from/with God, be it through the Bible, through prayer, or through straight up talking. There is also general revelation, which everyone has. General revelation is a general sense of morality and of some higher purpose or some higher being; even tribal people often have a sense of deity, even if it's a river or a rock. So, because everyone has some knowledge of God, even if they may not subconsciously realize it, they are accountable for this knowledge. That just throws the "age of accountability" stuff right out the window. Applies the mentally disabled as well.

Animals are different than people in one key way: they are not in the image of God, nor was their life breathed directly from God. They were created by God, but not to be like him by any stretch of the imagination. So, they aren't accountable to him by any stretch of the imagination. It's like the Chronicles of Narnia, or rather, those books are like it instead. In Narnia, all the "dumb beasts" were just that, and would simply die, nothing special. But those that were breathed on by Aslan could follow Aslan, just as we follow Christ, and go to the next world, the real Narnia. So, in short, animals share no part in God's pleasure because they are not "like God." They are not rewarded or punished. Those that are "like God" can be rewarded or punished.

So, in answer to your question, everyone who recieves grace gets a "free pass," but without it, there's no other way into Heaven.

[Dark616]

Originally Posted by Locke

Well, actually, your first scenario is hardly unlikely. We find tribes previously isolated from the world often enough. But unfortunately, there is no "free pass" to Heaven, or at least, not in the way you mean it; technically, the system we've got is already a free pass, becuase there is nothing to we can do to gain our own salvation, because it is a free gift from God. Now, as to what would happen to these tribal people: they would not be saved. The reason is because there are two kinds of "revelation," two ways in which we know God. The first is special revelation. Special revelation is direct communication from/with God, be it through the Bible, through prayer, or through straight up talking. There is also general revelation, which everyone has. General revelation is a general sense of morality and of some higher purpose or some higher being; even tribal people often have a sense of deity, even if it's a river or a rock. So, because everyone has some knowledge of God, even if they may not subconsciously realize it, they are accountable for this knowledge. That just throws the "age of accountability" stuff right out the window. Applies the mentally disabled as well.

Animals are different than people in one key way: they are not in the image of God, nor was their life breathed directly from God. They were created by God, but not to be like him by any stretch of the imagination. So, they aren't accountable to him by any stretch of the imagination. It's like the Chronicles of Narnia, or rather, those books are like it instead. In Narnia, all the "dumb beasts" were just that, and would simply die, nothing special. But those that were breathed on by Aslan could follow Aslan, just as we follow Christ, and go to the next world, the real Narnia. So, in short, animals share no part in God's pleasure because they are not "like God." They are not rewarded or punished. Those that are "like God" can be rewarded or punished.

So, in answer to your question, everyone who recieves grace gets a "free pass," but without it, there's no other way into Heaven.

what if the tribal's follow this general sense of the divine? will that allow them to be saved?

also, please refrain from "I'll post later" posts as they add nothing useful to the conversation.

[MackinawTJ]

Locke, do you think that only christians get saved or people from other religions who believe in some sort of god as well? I mean, do you see different religions as paths that all ultimately lead to the same place? Basically, my question is the same as dark616's, if they follow the general sense of their own personal tribe's concept of god, do they get saved?

And about animals, you may not realize how alike they are to us. Did you know monkeys can do anything humans can except verbally speak? Scientists have found qualities in animals that were previously thought to be unique to humans alone, such as the use of tools, ability to decieve others, a moral sense, ability to plan for the future, etc. They think, they feel, they are like us. If anything has a 'soul', animals must.

You talk about this "general revelation", a feeling that everyone has that god is real. I do not have this feeling whatsoever. I don't feel that god is watching over me, or taking care of me, or listening to me. I don't have this "sense of god" you are talking about. Why?

How about all the people who lived before jesus, people who knew nothing of god because christianity did not exist?

Here's a good quote by Eddie Vedder from an interview...

"Man lived on the planet -- [placing his fingers an inch apart], this is 5000 years of semi-recorded history. And God and the Bible, that came in somewhere around the middle, maybe 2000. This is the last 2000, this is what we're about to celebrate [indicating about an 1/8th of an inch with his fingers]. Now, humans, in some shape or form, have been on the earth for three million years [pointing across the room to indicate the distance]. So, all this time, from there [gesturing toward the other side of the room], to here [indicating the 1/8th of an inch], there was no God, there was no story, there was no myth and people lived on this planet and they wandered and they gathered and they did all these things. The planet was never threatened. How did they survive for all this time without this belief in God? I'd like to ask this to someone who knows about Christianity and maybe you do. That just seems funny to me."

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MackinawTJ

Locke, do you think that only christians get saved or people from other religions who believe in some sort of god as well? I mean, do you see different religions as paths that all ultimately lead to the same place? Basically, my question is the same as dark616's, if they follow the general sense of their own personal tribe's concept of god, do they get saved?

And about animals, you may not realize how alike they are to us. Did you know monkeys can do anything humans can except verbally speak? Scientists have found qualities in animals that were previously thought to be unique to humans alone, such as the use of tools, ability to decieve others, a moral sense, ability to plan for the future, etc. They think, they feel, they are like us. If anything has a 'soul', animals must.

You talk about this "general revelation", a feeling that everyone has that god is real. I do not have this feeling whatsoever. I don't feel that god is watching over me, or taking care of me, or listening to me. I don't have this "sense of god" you are talking about. Why?

How about all the people who lived before jesus, people who knew nothing of god because christianity did not exist?

Here's a good quote by Eddie Vedder from an interview...

"Man lived on the planet -- [placing his fingers an inch apart], this is 5000 years of semi-recorded history. And God and the Bible, that came in somewhere around the middle, maybe 2000. This is the last 2000, this is what we're about to celebrate [indicating about an 1/8th of an inch with his fingers]. Now, humans, in some shape or form, have been on the earth for three million years [pointing across the room to indicate the distance]. So, all this time, from there [gesturing toward the other side of the room], to here [indicating the 1/8th of an inch], there was no God, there was no story, there was no myth and people lived on this planet and they wandered and they gathered and they did all these things. The planet was never threatened. How did they survive for all this time without this belief in God? I'd like to ask this to someone who knows about Christianity and maybe you do. That just seems funny to me."

Yeah, pretty much just those who who follow Christ. The Bible leaves no room for anything else, and without that, where would any Christian be?

Just because we share physical similarities with other animals does not make them "like," at least not as far as I've been arguing. They key thing that determines whether or not something is responsible to God for its actions is whether or not it is made in God's image, meant to share in His glory and satisfaction. Animals just don't have that, and that is why we have dominion over them, a responsible stewardship.

You may not have a sense of God the person, but you must have some sense of something more than yourself. It doesn't refer to a presence per se, but everyone has a general sense of moral knowledge. After all, Christians aren't the only ones who can be "good people." And I think most people realize that their actions may have consequences beyond their knowledge or control. Knowledge is a pretty key part of Christianity; after all, God gave "the Law" to the Israelites so that they might know their sin and turn against it.

Basically, those before Christ were under a different coventant than those after his death. Here's some of the stuff I've posted on it before:

The people before and after Jesus lived under different covenants! God made conventants with the Israelites because of their sin. Certain regulations and laws were required. But they were still saved under them. However, when Jesus died, he brought about a negotiation of terms of these covnentants. He would go before the Father and be our mediator, rather than any earthly sacrifice or priest. He paid the price with His blood, and so, we now live through him instead of the covenant before His death. In short, Christ provided the service of the sacrifice for us, and made us all priests capable of talking to Him. He will answer to the Father for our sins.

Now, this quote simply ignores the possibility of a God, and ignores half of the rules of a good argument. It's also wrong, because Christians don't, or at least shouldn't, believe in such a young Earth. The Earth is young, but not nearly as young as that figure. Theories have been floating around from 10,000 to 50,000. Small gripe aside, this only makes sense if his worldview is absolutely true. I'm fairly sure that Christians don't hold to a millions-of-years sort of theory. Simple debating rules dictate that such blatant disregard for any other view is dangerous when making a convincing argument, especially if the claims aren't backed up by ANYTHING, as happens in this quote. So, it really fails to sway me, and likely most Christians, in the least bit. This does not serve as an argument, but a statement.

[MackinawTJ]

The quote wasn't by a scientist or anything, not a professional. He's a musician. But scientifically speaking he was correct, the oldest human we have ever found (Lucy) was about 3 million years old. I don't see why it's not a good argument, as it is backed up by evidence. I included the quote because it was just basically summing up my question relating to before jesus was around and life before anyone believed in god. I agree with his view and had the same question he posed.

I think scientific proof is more credible than the bible, which is just one book. Scientific evidence is based on research by some of the greatest minds. It is backed up by solid proof. It is logical and makes sense.

The oldest rocks which have been found so far (on the Earth) date to about 3.8 to 3.9 billion years ago (by several radiometric dating methods). Some of these rocks are sedimentary, and include minerals which are themselves as old as 4.1 to 4.2 billion years. Rocks of this age are relatively rare, however rocks that are at least 3.5 billion years in age have been found on North America, Greenland, Australia, Africa, and Asia.

While these values do not compute an age for the Earth, they do establish a lower limit (the Earth must be at least as old as any formation on it). This lower limit is at least concordant with the independently derived figure of 4.55 billion years for the Earth's actual age.

I have morals because they were taught to me by my parents. Humans may have a natural sense of morals, but that can be attributed to pure instincts, just automatically imprinted upon our brains. I do ethical things because I believe they are right, not because of any belief in a higher power.

I asked the question about you believing christianity as the exclusive way for salvation because of an interesting poll I recently read about. I will post a seperate thread about it.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by MackinawTJ

The quote wasn't by a scientist or anything, not a professional. He's a musician. But scientifically speaking he was correct, the oldest human we have ever found (Lucy) was about 3 million years old. I don't see why it's not a good argument, as it is backed up by evidence. I included the quote because it was just basically summing up my question relating to before jesus was around and life before anyone believed in god. I agree with his view and had the same question he posed.

I think scientific proof is more credible than the bible, which is just one book. Scientific evidence is based on research by some of the greatest minds. It is backed up by solid proof. It is logical and makes sense.



I have morals because they were taught to me by my parents. Humans may have a natural sense of morals, but that can be attributed to pure instincts, just automatically imprinted upon our brains. I do ethical things because I believe they are right, not because of any belief in a higher power.

I asked the question about you believing christianity as the exclusive way for salvation because of an interesting poll I recently read about. I will post a seperate thread about it.

Well, that was actually half directed at you. You used it as if his opinion was actually important or proved something, when it clearly does not. And the whole 3 million years deal? Bull. There is no accurate dating method for more than 10,000 years. When you get past that, you simply have to make too many assumptions and the numbers become useless. And as for science, science is great. Science is wonderful. Science, however, cannot reveal truth, only a currently workable solution. Also, human error can screw up science. Not just misplacing a decimal, but just human limitations in general. So, science can tell us a lot of things, but anything found using the scientific method is not "true." It is "workable." Simple science experiments can tells us that gravity exists. However, what if gravity isn't gravity at all, but actually something completely different, say, some other dimension acting upon our own? So, my point is that science can only tell us certain things, which are limited to realm of human observation and understanding. Not a trustworthy, reliable source. And really, the Bible is much the same; if it were followed properly, it would be a fine, workable model upon which to base our lives. However, there is one key difference: if it what it says it is, then it is truth, and it is infallible, and it trumps human findings and successes any day of the week because the words come directly from the mouth of God, not the fingers of man.

Isn't that pretty much what I said?

...but everyone has a general sense of moral knowledge. After all, Christians aren't the only ones who can be "good people." And I think most people realize that their actions may have consequences beyond their knowledge or control.

Higher powers can enter into this understanding, but they don't have to. The key is that this "revelation" reveals some key moral understandings that give us a framework upon which to build our lives and communities.

EDIT: I wonder why it is that besides Dark616, I'm more or less the only Christian actually attmepting to debate these topics. I'm sure there must be more than a couple Christians on this board, right? Surely some of you are capable of arguing these points. It's not like any of this is some special hidden knowledge that only I know about or anything.

[BigMakk]

Originally Posted by Locke

EDIT: I wonder why it is that besides Dark616, I'm more or less the only Christian actually attmepting to debate these topics. I'm sure there must be more than a couple Christians on this board, right? Surely some of you are capable of arguing these points. It's not like any of this is some special hidden knowledge that only I know about or anything.

Because you are a religious genius Locke (plus Dark616)

[Locke]

I'm hardly a genius; I wouldn't be surprised if Little Horn knew more about Christianity than myself. As I said, none of this stuff is like a new revelation from God. Anyone who spends any time in their Bible at all(and I don't spend nearly as much as I probably ought to) should know most of this stuff.

[ChrisV1]

"And that servant who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more." (Luke 12:47-48)