Who gets a "free pass" to heaven?

[EndUnknown]

Originally Posted by Locke

Well, it's not like He really has a choice. God can do anything, so long as it is in His nature. For instance, because God is a logical God, He cannot create a married bachelor; it cannot logically exist. In the same way, God cannot have a relationship with something fully sinful. A baby, not yet absolved of its sin, is fully sinful. God can't send unborn babies to Heaven. But again, this all comes down to original sin; it's existance is what our arguments hinge upon. So long as there is no original sin, your arguments would appear to make sense. However, the presence of original sin, which can be Biblically supported, means that my arguments are the only possible choice. So, let's go over to the "original sin" topic and argue about that now.

I wouldn't even say the baby is fully sinful, it is merely tainted by
sin. humans CAN NOT be fully sinful as we are fundamentally in Gods image.

[da_mean_cat]

And accidental miscarriages? Another tragedy. These aren't things to be taken lightly. They happen for one reason, and one reason alone: sin.

Excuse me but you can't say that's the reason. Only God knows why some babies die before being born. Is not sin my friend. I respect your opinion and your beliefs but I think you should study more the bible, by yourself more than just read some of it and believe everything like it is. In the Bible, it says you should study it. In spanish it says escudriñar, wich is a word takes grom the greek meaning, pull apart in order to learn everything from it. The God you're talking about is far enough from the God the loving God the Bible teaches. I have a question for you. The indians, when there was no civilization, they had different gods. Did they go to hell? I mean, they didn't know God, the only God existed, that's why they had different gods.

[da_mean_cat]

and a second question for you. You talk a lot about the original sin. Tell me where is this original sin in the Bible and from where do you get your belief in this original sin since I've studied the Bible and Theology and I haven't seen this "original sin" of yours.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Dark616

I wouldn't even say the baby is fully sinful, it is merely tainted by
sin. humans CAN NOT be fully sinful as we are fundamentally in Gods image.

Really? We may be in God's image, but if we had even a little bit of what that entailed, then why would we need God? Could we not then save ourselves? If we have any inherent goodness, any chance at redeeming ourselves, then God is a liar. The heart is desperately wicked, and full of deception. Sound like something akin to God? Again though, this is a question of original sin, so let's take it to the other topic.

Originally Posted by da_mean_cat

Excuse me but you can't say that's the reason. Only God knows why some babies die before being born. Is not sin my friend. I respect your opinion and your beliefs but I think you should study more the bible, by yourself more than just read some of it and believe everything like it is. In the Bible, it says you should study it. In spanish it says escudriñar, wich is a word takes grom the greek meaning, pull apart in order to learn everything from it. The God you're talking about is far enough from the God the loving God the Bible teaches. I have a question for you. The indians, when there was no civilization, they had different gods. Did they go to hell? I mean, they didn't know God, the only God existed, that's why they had different gods.

Well, since sin corrupted the entire world, and thus any hardship must be caused by sin, and since any tragedy such as this counts as a hardship, it MUST be sin. It cannot be anything else. Sin, mind you, not sins. Sin, the thing that has plagued mankind ever since Adam and Eve took the fruit, ever since Cain slew Able.

Are you then implying that I am taking verses out of context? I know that I've called you out on several verses used incorrectly. You must not only read the entire Bible, which is indeed important, but also look at how each and every verse interconnects. If there is one verse solidly for something, and one solidly against, then the interpretation must be off, or else the Bible is flawed. So, that is why we need to look at logical connections, and word meanings, at so many different factors, and not jump to conclusions when the surface seems to show contradictions.

This "God of Love" is a lie on its own. He is equally balanced by other parts of his personality. Is not God just? Does He not judge? He can't simply be love, because only love would be evil. For a just God to reward, He must also punish. It only logical, and God is logical. And have you ever, for one moment, stopped and thought "why does this world exist, and the way it does?" If God wanted to, He could have us all be with Him. He could extend His grace to each and every single person on the planet, justice be damned, and have everyone be with Him. If He can extend grace to a few(I'm fairly sure that Revelation says that Christians make up a rather small portion of the Earth, but I'll check), then why not to everyone? Either He has, and we simply don't know it, which would mean this has all be some big game for Him, lying to us and messing with our minds. I don't think that's it. My personal believe, and from what I've found in Biblical studies, is that God has the world as it is for one reason, and one reason only: to showcase His glory and power. That's it. It's all about God. And that's the way it should be. He allows evil to exist only to show its futility, and in the end, to crush it with all His might. Each and every lost soul stands as a testament to the power of God to smite His enemies, any who will stand against Him. Like a good tactical commander, He chooses His soldiers not for what they are, but for what He can make out of them. I don't know about you, but that makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Yeah, they don't stand a chance. The Bible is pretty clear that you must follow God in both name and deed. Before Christ, you had to be wholy dedicated to God, give sacrifices, and perform many rituals. After Christ, the rituals are done away with, and the sacrifice we Christ himself. All that is left is whole devotion to God, and no other. God even describes Himself as a "jealous God," who will not tolerate us serving anyone but Him. However, with Christ as a mediator, we cannot lose our salvation, because we are eternally paid for. Even so, Paul reminds us that all things may be lawful, but not necessarily beneficial.

Originally Posted by da_mean_cat

and a second question for you. You talk a lot about the original sin. Tell me where is this original sin in the Bible and from where do you get your belief in this original sin since I've studied the Bible and Theology and I haven't seen this "original sin" of yours.

I don't know how many times I'll have to say this, but I'll get to it in the "original sin" topic. I've got a pretty decent list of verses going at the moment, so all that's left is to write them up and put some intrepretative notes. I've been a little lazy about it though. ^_^; If I don't have it tonight, just bug me in a PM or something. But I do have verses.

[da_mean_cat]

Sin, mind you, not sins. Sin, the thing that has plagued mankind ever since Adam and Eve took the fruit, ever since Cain slew Able.

This is the part that keeps bugging me. The Bible talk about only 1 sin. Sin = Sin, nothing else. There's no such thing as mayor sin or little sin. Sin is sin in God's eye. What is this sins? It looks like the word sin in plural. I've never read about it in the Bible.

Before Christ, you had to be wholy dedicated to God, give sacrifices, and perform many rituals. After Christ, the rituals are done away with, and the sacrifice we Christ himself. All that is left is whole devotion to God, and no other. God even describes Himself as a "jealous God," who will not tolerate us serving anyone but Him. However, with Christ as a mediator, we cannot lose our salvation, because we are eternally paid for. Even so, Paul reminds us that all things may be lawful, but not necessarily beneficial.

In this I totally agree with you.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by da_mean_cat

This is the part that keeps bugging me. The Bible talk about only 1 sin. Sin = Sin, nothing else. There's no such thing as mayor sin or little sin. Sin is sin in God's eye. What is this sins? It looks like the word sin in plural. I've never read about it in the Bible.

There is a difference in the original language, even if the words in the translation are the same. If I remember correctly, there are at least 4 different "flavors" to sin in the Bible, each with a different emphaisis. And you're right, there's no different level of sin, to a degree-God considers sexual sins abominable above all others, even though the punishment is the same. Sexual sin is often the hallmark of a society in trouble. When a society becomes hopelessly sinful, sometimes God "gives them to their passions" and allows them the complete and uninhibited practise of their desires. But that is neither here nor there. The issue is "sin" vs. "sins." Sin is the corruptive force that has altered the world itself. Sins are merely physical manifestations of that corruption. But again, this all relates to original sin. I'm going to work some more on that list right now, actually. Then we can start to debate the core issue here.