So, according to the bible, I can do anything as long as I say sorry afterwards?

[ben52192]

Originally Posted by MackinawTJ

And why does Guy A deserve to go to hell even though he lived a moral life and helped people when he was alive?

Well, he doesn't believe in hell or heaven, so why should we sit around wondering where he goes and why?
Does that make sense? I'm not sure that came out exactly right.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Atrocious

Yeah if I'm on my deathbed, I might commit myself to this religion again in the last few seconds of my life so I go to heaven. It should work, since that's what you gotta do.

Well, not really. Christianity is not about what you do. You can say, "I commit myself to Jesus!" but it won't do a thing. You see, when missionaries go out and try to convert others, it is not them that saves anyone; it is God, and God alone who can bestow grace. They are only agents of His will. So, unless you have been "elected" and chosen as one of His children, it doesn't matter waht you say. This is because no one with a human nature can sincerely say this. Human nature is natually opposed to God. People cannot accept God until God has accepted them, and bestows the Holy Spirit upon them. So, unless that happens, you cannot sincerely and honestly say such a thing.

[da_mean_cat]

People cannot accept God until God has accepted them, and bestows the Holy Spirit upon them. So, unless that happens, you cannot sincerely and honestly say such a thing.

I'm sorry but the Bible says God wants EVERYONE to be saved. So basically, he choosed everyone. If what you're saying is true, then Jesus died only for some special elected people and is not like that. John 3:16 says: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life".
Over there it says whoever meaning, not only some people God chooses. Now, is not about you accepting God when you're about to die either since you don't know when that's happening and because it won't be from the heart cause you waited your whole life sinning so that when you're about to die you can repent. God knows the heart and he knows who's sincere and who's not. The Bible also says, Not everyone that says "Oh Lord" will be saved. Many people are christian from the mouth outside but not in their hearts. Is like the kid who makes a prank and then says "I'm sorry" to his mother just to cool down the emotions but not because he has repent.

[Locke]

Well, then how do you explain away the curse of sin? Because of the actions of Adam and Eve, every human on Earth shares an equal part in their sin. It's become a part of us, and corrupted us in turn. Sin and God cannot exist together, so something has to abolish that inherent sin nature. Since all humans have it as soon as they become humans, and since they cannot by nature rid themselves of their sin, God has to actively absolve it. God wants everyone to be saved, and Jesus did die for everyone, but only those who God elects will be able to follow God. Doesn't sound right, you say? Allow me to present to you the Pharoah of Moses' time, who was most likely named Ramases. Ramases was about to let the Israelites go, but instead, God hardened his heart, so the Israelites were not allowed to go. Again, after they left, God hardened his heart, and so the Pharoah chased after them to his own doom. This shows that even if God hardens your heart against His will, and softens it toward His will, we are still responsible for our own actions. These actions are ours, even though God instituted them. This is how God can call you or not call you, and yet still hold you accountable for that. Now, why does He do this? I honestly can't say, or at least, say anything I can Biblically support. The Bible does say that we can't even begin to contemplate God and His motives as we are, because even though we as His children have had "sin" removed from us, we are still broken. It's my belief that this is all, this whole world is one big show of God's glory and power. I may be wrong. However, the fact is that God does these things, and that we are to trust Him because, well, he's God.

You know, I completely forgot about this verse. Heh. I know you're using it against Atrocius' point here, but I think this shows something else about the heart attitude. As you probably know-I'm doing this for the benefit of those outside of Christianity at the moment-Christ was VERY big on heart attitude over actions. The reason behind an action was more important than the action itself. If that is true, then how can a sinful man ever, truthfully from the heart, repent? Isn't the human heart "hopelessly depraved" and "full of deceit?"

[da_mean_cat]

We are all sinners. That's why there's forgiveness trough Christ. I understand what you say and I agree but when you read the Bible, you will know that everyone has the same chance to be saved and not only some that God choose. That's all I don't agree with you. Besides, I never said you go to heaven being a sinner. That's why Christ died in the cross, to be the maximum sacrifice so that we, the one's who accepted his sacrifice, be forgiven from our sins so that we can go to heaven.

[Locke]

Well, this all comes down to my last statement: man cannot accept Christ of his own because he is sinful. If man cannot accept Christ, then grace must be bestowed upon him. And since we know that not everyone is going to Heaven, we must assume that Jesus' death isn't an automatic ticket of forgiveness. So, knowing that, it is impossible for anyone to get to Heaven unless they have been chosen.

Well, unless you want to directly counter this statement, there's nothing to be said here that can't be said in the "free ride" topic. So, we may as well migrate our arguments all over there to keep everything in place, orderly and whatnot.

[da_mean_cat]

well my friend. The Bible teaches me that we are the ones who have to make the decision because then it wouldn't be fair that people who can't make a decision get's punished by something they couldn't decide. Yes, I agree with you that God does come to us, and yes, he looks for us but not everyone is like that. If that is so, tell me then why Jesus said we should spread the world? Jesus himself said that we should preach around the world and EVERYONE that believes become saved. Those are His words and I'm gonna look for the exact verse.

[2651815]

Originally Posted by MackinawTJ

First off, I'm an atheist. I am also open-minded and find religion quite interesting and enjoy debating/discussing it.

This is something that I find a bit...unfair? Weird? I dunno.
Basically, the bible says you can do anything as long as you repent for it. So let's say there's Guy A and Guy B. Guy A/Guy B are in NO way a reflection of the typical atheist/christian. I am in NO way saying all atheists are good or all Christians are bad, I know that is not true and there are good and bad of both.

Guy A is an overall charitable, nice, helpful, generous person who tries his best to live a moral life, tries to help out the people around him when he can, would give you the shirt off his back, etc. Bottom line is that he's a good, peaceful person that makes positive contributions to society and he is an atheist or agnostic, a nonbeliever.
Now time to get to Guy B. Guy B is a willfully malicious, horrible person. He's a serial killer, rapist, and child molester. He never helps anyone out, he's overall a very twisted person and doesn't deserve a second chance because people have tried to help him but Guy B refuses to be helped. Guy B repents, says he is sorry, for all of the horrible things he did and all the innocent people whose lives he ruined when on the verge of death.
The bible says Guy A will not go to heaven, he will go to hell, and that Guy B will go to heaven.

Does this make ANY sense to you whatsoever? Why should Guy A go to hell when he clearly is a good person and doesn't deserve it, while Guy B is a horrible person and DOES deserve to? Please explain and discuss, I am open to any and all opinions. Thanks.

Too tired to read what anyone else said.
But.
Not all religions based on Christianity say that Guy A will go to hell. My religion says that everyone can go to heaven even in the afterlife. Too bad I'm not religious enough to tell you any more, cuz I don't know any more rofl

[MackinawTJ]

Originally Posted by 2651815

Too tired to read what anyone else said.
But.
Not all religions based on Christianity say that Guy A will go to hell. My religion says that everyone can go to heaven even in the afterlife. Too bad I'm not religious enough to tell you any more, cuz I don't know any more rofl

That's interesting. My mom used to tell me that everyone who's good, like Guy A, will go to heaven. That made sense to me when I was a kid, so I didn't put a lot of thought into it at a young age. Now I'm an atheist and she's agnostic.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by da_mean_cat

well my friend. The Bible teaches me that we are the ones who have to make the decision because then it wouldn't be fair that people who can't make a decision get's punished by something they couldn't decide. Yes, I agree with you that God does come to us, and yes, he looks for us but not everyone is like that. If that is so, tell me then why Jesus said we should spread the world? Jesus himself said that we should preach around the world and EVERYONE that believes become saved. Those are His words and I'm gonna look for the exact verse.

*ahem*

Doesn't sound right, you say? Allow me to present to you the Pharoah of Moses' time, who was most likely named Ramases. Ramases was about to let the Israelites go, but instead, God hardened his heart, so the Israelites were not allowed to go. Again, after they left, God hardened his heart, and so the Pharoah chased after them to his own doom. This shows that even if God hardens your heart against His will, and softens it toward His will, we are still responsible for our own actions. These actions are ours, even though God instituted them. This is how God can call you or not call you, and yet still hold you accountable for that.

tell me then why Jesus said we should spread the world? Jesus himself said that we should preach around the world and EVERYONE that believes become saved.

Easy. We do spread the word. They do believe. But is it because of us? No. We are the physical agents of God on Earth, but the Holy Spirit must convict us before we are open to any such words. We have to have our sin nature replaced before we can repent. God has to institute it all. It is by Him that these things happen. And everyone that believes is saved. Problem is, no one can truly believe until God lays conviction upon their hearts. God is the key factor in all this.

Well, as I've said before, this all comes down to original sin. That is probably the primary reason why I believe in predestination and you don't. As promised, I've got some verses lined up, which I will present in the "free ride" topic.