Abortion and religion

[EndUnknown]

Originally Posted by BigMakk

Now, we can debate on whether they are or aren't all day long, but the point is you cannot make a valid reason against abortions based on opinion.

By that logic, you can not make an argument against me slaughtering you with a kitchen shear, because it would be based on your opinion that you dont deserve it.

[BigMakk]

Originally Posted by Dark616

By that logic, you can not make an argument against me slaughtering you with a kitchen shear, because it would be based on your opinion that you dont deserve it.

Exactly. You would say I deserve it and I would say that I don't. We can SAY whatever we want, but in the end the only thing we are gonna be left with is opinions. Evidence and a moderator would be the only way to decide.

And I'm sorry Locke, I just felt that the concrete argument you were trying to make had that problem, and I had to put my opinion out (ironic?).

[Locke]

Originally Posted by BigMakk

Well once again, people see unborn babies differently. Some do not see them as people, but merely extensions of the female body that have the potential to become people.

Now, we can debate on whether they are or aren't all day long, but the point is you cannot make a valid reason against abortions based on opinion.

Wrong! All arguments, all of them, are based on opinions. That's the starting point for any debate. The difference is the evidence used to that end that makes the point valid. So, if you're going to attack my argument, attack the evidence itself, not the starting opinion. I'm am 100% certain that you have an opinion on the matter, and have certai proofs and reasons as to why you hold that and not another. It's pretty much how the world works, and there's nothing you can really do about it. So, my #1 evidence that the unborn baby is not just an extension of the mother's body was that four points a while back, the Size, Location, Level of Development, Degree of Depency thing. You claimed that the degree was too extreme for this to matter. I countered by saying that if we allow degrees into our judgement, then our judgements become subjective and, ultimately, useless. So, if you want to disprove me theory, there are two things you can do: A) Show that there is another significant difference between an unborn baby and me and you or B) Disprove and/or counter my point that degrees allow subjectivity in my judgment. If you can take either of these avenues of attack, or even think of another, then the ball will be back in my court, so to speak, to counter. The end comes when one of us cannot refute the other. So, either you respond in turn, admit that I am right, or still hold that I am wrong but are simply unable to prove it with the resources and knowledge available to you. Your last post most closely resembles the third option, but I'd like to see some confirmation if this is the case.

Now, to do a little countering of my own, it matters little that people disagree on this issue, if there is any absolute truth. If there is absolute truth, then there is one answer to this debate that applies to everyone. If there is no absolute truth, however, then what is right differs from person to person. I would say that there is absolute truth, and that there must be for an orderly universe to exist. What do you say? It is important that we understand each other if anything is to come of this debate.

[argondey]

Originally Posted by Locke

I would also say there is one VERY key reason to have abortions: non-viability. Essentially, that means that the baby cannot survive outside of the womb, or even inside in some cases. This can occur due to severe genetic defect, ectopic pregnancies, so on. But this isn't to be taken lightly, either: this should only occur when there is absolute undeniable proof that this baby will simply die and/or kill the mother. So, having severe deformities or diseases don't count unless the baby will simply not survive. This needs to be clearly defined, as abortion is no small matter.

Well, I do believe that you have a right to express your opinion, but that doesn't mean that you can't expect to take critisism for it; after all, this is a place for discussion, so "free opinions" are not some magical panecea that protect you from any and all arguments, and besides, there is not legal basis for free speach on any private real estate, be it physical or virtual. Granted, I don't disagree with you a whole lot, but I'm sure people will, and people will say what they want. If they do do such a thing for the sake of flaming, use some fo the power you have as a member(-rep, reporting) rather than a weak statement such as this. It tends to work out better.

i am really sorry about that, i totally forgot to mention pregnancy complications and genetic defects and health issues and such, totally my fault. as for rape, my point was that...when a rape occurs, it is often crushing for the victim, suicide can happen as well as murder of the child after birth, the victim will likely do anything to forget about the event, this becomes difficult to do when you have a constant reminder of it that screams and wails and requires your constant attention, your constant thought back to the worst day or days of your life, when you screwed up your whole life just by walking down the wrong street. and there it is sitting there screaming and crying at you, the embodiement of your suffering and pain, within it, the very essence of the being you hate most on this earth, and while you are pregnant, it feels like a leech, a peice of the person who raped you, still inside like a splinter that just wont come out, only worse...much worse. it grows in you, makes you unattractive, and brings you pain.

Not to undermine your ideas, they may well be right for all i know, but i was just trying to give you an idea of what a victim of such a horrible crime goes through. and if you look back at my post i think you will find that i was asking not for the right to stand unchallenged, but simply not to have my thoughts judged only because i am an atheist.

Also, for anyone who cares to know, i am a male, so i probably cannot truly fathom what a rape victim goes through, yes i know i technically can be raped, though its not exactly likely, but i cannot get pregnant as a result. If you would like to know what it really feels like, ask a rape victim (and remember, psycological results of your rape may vary.)

[Locke]

Originally Posted by argondey

i am really sorry about that, i totally forgot to mention pregnancy complications and genetic defects and health issues and such, totally my fault. as for rape, my point was that...when a rape occurs, it is often crushing for the victim, suicide can happen as well as murder of the child after birth, the victim will likely do anything to forget about the event, this becomes difficult to do when you have a constant reminder of it that screams and wails and requires your constant attention, your constant thought back to the worst day or days of your life, when you screwed up your whole life just by walking down the wrong street. and there it is sitting there screaming and crying at you, the embodiement of your suffering and pain, within it, the very essence of the being you hate most on this earth, and while you are pregnant, it feels like a leech, a peice of the person who raped you, still inside like a splinter that just wont come out, only worse...much worse. it grows in you, makes you unattractive, and brings you pain.

Not to undermine your ideas, they may well be right for all i know, but i was just trying to give you an idea of what a victim of such a horrible crime goes through. and if you look back at my post i think you will find that i was asking not for the right to stand unchallenged, but simply not to have my thoughts judged only because i am an atheist.

Also, for anyone who cares to know, i am a male, so i probably cannot truly fathom what a rape victim goes through, yes i know i technically can be raped, though its not exactly likely, but i cannot get pregnant as a result. If you would like to know what it really feels like, ask a rape victim (and remember, psycological results of your rape may vary.)

Well, I'd absolutely agree with you that rape can do terrible things to a person. But when should a terrible situation be a justification for ending the life of another? If I feel terrible, awful, suicdal, does that give me the right to kill anyone? No. So, why should that apply to anyone else? If anything, we need more groups who reach out to rape victims, to help them, rather than offering them a quick fix that doesn't actually fix anything. Now, I don't mean to go attacking rape victims, but they need real help for their problems, and that's what we should be focusing on.

Well, whenever people say, "I have a right to my opinion," I start to wonder. Too many people throw free speech around as their own personal bodyguard. Good to know you're not one of them.

Well, just out of curiosity, and by the way you've been talking I suspect this is true, have you had any personal experience with rape victims?

I'm sorry, and I know this is probably wrong in ten different ways, but I couldn't help but laugh at your last sentence. It sounds almost like a doctor prescribing medicine.

[argondey]

Originally Posted by Locke

Well, just out of curiosity, and by the way you've been talking I suspect this is true, have you had any personal experience with rape victims?

I'm sorry, and I know this is probably wrong in ten different ways, but I couldn't help but laugh at your last sentence. It sounds almost like a doctor prescribing medicine.

oddly enough no, im just very good at sympathizing with other people and seeing the world through their eyes. oh and im glad you saw it that way, it's exactly how i intended it.

[BigMakk]

Originally Posted by Locke

Wrong! All arguments, all of them, are based on opinions. That's the starting point for any debate. The difference is the evidence used to that end that makes the point valid. So, if you're going to attack my argument, attack the evidence itself, not the starting opinion. I'm am 100% certain that you have an opinion on the matter, and have certai proofs and reasons as to why you hold that and not another. It's pretty much how the world works, and there's nothing you can really do about it. So, my #1 evidence that the unborn baby is not just an extension of the mother's body was that four points a while back, the Size, Location, Level of Development, Degree of Depency thing. You claimed that the degree was too extreme for this to matter. I countered by saying that if we allow degrees into our judgement, then our judgements become subjective and, ultimately, useless. So, if you want to disprove me theory, there are two things you can do: A) Show that there is another significant difference between an unborn baby and me and you or B) Disprove and/or counter my point that degrees allow subjectivity in my judgment. If you can take either of these avenues of attack, or even think of another, then the ball will be back in my court, so to speak, to counter. The end comes when one of us cannot refute the other. So, either you respond in turn, admit that I am right, or still hold that I am wrong but are simply unable to prove it with the resources and knowledge available to you. Your last post most closely resembles the third option, but I'd like to see some confirmation if this is the case.

Now, to do a little countering of my own, it matters little that people disagree on this issue, if there is any absolute truth. If there is absolute truth, then there is one answer to this debate that applies to everyone. If there is no absolute truth, however, then what is right differs from person to person. I would say that there is absolute truth, and that there must be for an orderly universe to exist. What do you say? It is important that we understand each other if anything is to come of this debate.

No I don't believe there is an absolute truth on the issue (Roe v. Wade also left it alone at viability), and I have never really wanted to debate on it either.

All I said was that you made a reason for an argument based on an opinion and you left it at that (which you said evidence makes a point valid, so yours wasn't). I thought it wasn't very concrete, and just put that out there.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by BigMakk

No I don't believe there is an absolute truth on the issue (Roe v. Wade also left it alone at viability), and I have never really wanted to debate on it either.

All I said was that you made a reason for an argument based on an opinion and you left it at that (which you said evidence makes a point valid, so yours wasn't). I thought it wasn't very concrete, and just put that out there.

Yep, third option. You say that I have no concrete evidence, yet do nothing to prove that, or in any way refute my claims with counter-evidence.

[BigMakk]

Originally Posted by Locke

First off, wanted or not, that unborn baby is still a baby, and still has a right to life.

You want evidence from me that you did not make a point except that you believe that the "unborn baby is still a baby." Great, you think that it has a right to life also. When? When it is still a ball of cells that has the POTENTIAL for life?
When it is still so much dependent that it lives almost like a parasite?


And yet, if you believe in evolution, you could accidentally kill a one celled organism and say that you killed a person because it has the POTENTIAL to evolve into a human.

[Locke]

Again, I point you to the Size, Location, Level of Development, Degree of Dependency argument. It is not a potential for life, it is life. The degree of these factors, if allowed to be used in judging the humanity of a person, will only lead to atrocities in the future. I don't trust one single human being on Earth to make such judgements on anyone. Not even myself. I don't have the right, nor does anyone else.

Luckily, I don't believe in evolution. However, if we went by that model, then we'd all be royally screwed, no? To go on another tangent for a second, kind a of an argument against theistic evolution when you think about it. Thanks, I guess. That's kind of a cool argument.

[BigMakk]

Originally Posted by Locke

Again, I point you to the Size, Location, Level of Development, Degree of Dependency argument. It is not a potential for life, it is life. The degree of these factors, if allowed to be used in judging the humanity of a person, will only lead to atrocities in the future. I don't trust one single human being on Earth to make such judgements on anyone. Not even myself. I don't have the right, nor does anyone else.

Luckily, I don't believe in evolution. However, if we went by that model, then we'd all be royally screwed, no? To go on another tangent for a second, kind a of an argument against theistic evolution when you think about it. Thanks, I guess. That's kind of a cool argument.

I cannot do anything against your discrepancies because I did agree with them.

You could say you won.

Btw just so you know, I am not for abortion totally, which I think you think I am; just wanted to see where the argument could go from the other end.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by BigMakk

Btw just so you know, I am not for abortion totally, which I think you think I am; just wanted to see where the argument could go from the other end.

Eh, I figured you weren't totally on the bandwagon; I've yet to meet an full fledged abortionist who did not hardline woman's choice and all that jazz. And arguments aren't half as fun unless you take a stand opposite to someone else, no?

[argondey]

Originally Posted by Locke

Eh, I figured you weren't totally on the bandwagon; I've yet to meet an full fledged abortionist who did not hardline woman's choice and all that jazz. And arguments aren't half as fun unless you take a stand opposite to someone else, no?

hehe, reminds me of debates where i was the only one on one side of an arguement with fifteen people on the other side. the problem was that most of the time i was justifying warcrimes lol

[BigMakk]

I'm also not the greatest at debates, or the most intelligent. I still have fun seeing other viewpoints and yours were very good Locke.

I wasn't lying when I said I hate abortion debates though :P

[jordanmartos]

Well, granted that the baby goes to heaven is a good thing. But in the eyes of the doctor or the people watching the abortion, it is called an abortion...also known as murder, and that is one of the 10 commandments "Thou shalt not murder". That's why Christians are agaisnt abortions. But very good view point man. I never thought about that.

[monahan]

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