Anyone who believes in intelligent design will veiw all of the natural world around them as tangible proof for God. I believe He does make Himself known, you just need to have your heart in the right place, and be willing to listen.
You cannot use religion to prove religious beliefs are correct. You must use rational understanding that anyone can understand and accept, even those who are not religious. It's no different than me saying that the theory of evolution is correct because those that believe in evolution take Charles Darwin's theories as proof. This is no different than what you just said.
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If you believe God created the universe, I see no problem with this one.
So according to you, if you believe god created the universe, there is no problem believing in anything even if these beliefs make no sense whatsoever.
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Because the "good" athiest never asked for forgiveness of his sins. God gives us a choice, either accept or deny Him, based on that decision, you either spend eternity with Him, or apart from Him.
I've never once rejected god. You cannot reject something that you don't believe exists. God never approached me with an offer to accept his word. If he did, who knows, I may just accept. But instead, Christians tell me I should accept what they teach even though many of their beliefs don't make sense and there is no proof to back up what they believe. As a rational human being, I came to the assumption that there must be no god based on reasoning. According the Christian belief, I will go to hell for this. But a Christian that accepts with blind unreasoned faith who kills and rapes will gain acceptance to heaven as long as they repent at the gates.
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You could say that there is no tangible evidence, but there are many holes in the Theory of evolution that can point to Intelligent Design.
Please name some faults with the theory of evolution that point to the existence of god, without using religion or the bible to justify your statements, but instead rational thinking.
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Because the whole purpose of life in Christianity is a test for Eternal Happiness. There will be harsh times, death, sickness, evil dictators, and opposing view points swayed your way but if you can get through all of that and still believe and love god you have earned your spot up in the good place.
I understand the beliefs of Christianity. You don't have to cite them for me because I grew up learning them.
What I am trying to say is: Why is a bad Christian who commits unimaginable sins but repents at the gates of heaven granted eternal life, but a good atheist who is charity worker burns in hell for eternity? The only error in the atheist's ways was using the gifts god gave him.
Do you honestly believe this is right?
This makes no sense when you assume Christian belief is correct and we were created by an all loving god. But it makes perfect sense when you assume there is no god, but these rules were created by Christians in ancient times to gain followers out of fear. Why do you suppose this is so?
Last edited by Rocky32189; 06-05-2008 at 12:26 PM.
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Please name some faults with the theory of evolution that point to the existence of god, without using religion or the bible to justify your statements, but instead rational thinking.
Just the fact that even over billions over years it would be almost impossible that a singled-celled organism could produce a light-sensitive eye that would be able to see clearly by itself or the human brain that has 120 trillion interconnections by 12 billion cells and can make calculations in a second flat or thousands of hours of memory and that it could connect back to the eye. Or that elements that created the alleged single celled organism came from nowhere.
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Originally Posted by Rocky32189
What I am trying to say is: Why is a bad Christian who commits unimaginable sins but repents at the gates of heaven granted eternal life, but a good atheist who is charity worker burns in hell for eternity? The only error in the atheist's ways was using the gifts god gave him.
Do you honestly believe this is right?
Because you are denying that Jesus was tortured and died for our sins, and you are denying the hard work of God that is life, ground, and the sea. You are saying god is invaluable and denying his existence as our creator, where as if a Christian is truly sorry and willing to change his ways to become a better being, god will know this and grant him that wish. Christianity is all about forgiveness after all...
Just the fact that even over billions over years it would be almost impossible that a singled-celled organism could produce a light-sensitive eye that would be able to see clearly by itself or the human brain that has 120 trillion interconnections by 12 billion cells and can make calculations in a second flat or thousands of hours of memory and that it could connect back to the eye. Or that elements that created the alleged single celled organism came from nowhere.
Just the fact that even over billions over years it would be almost impossible that a singled-celled organism could produce a light-sensitive eye that would be able to see clearly by itself or the human brain that has 120 trillion interconnections by 12 billion cells and can make calculations in a second flat or thousands of hours of memory and that it could connect back to the eye. Or that elements that created the alleged single celled organism came from nowhere.
No more impossible than a God that created everything... At least with science there is some understanding and evidence as to how a single celled organism came to be. This is a lot more than what religion has to offer.
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I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.[/
No more impossible than a God that created everything... At least with science there is some understanding and evidence as to how a single celled organism came to be. This is a lot more than what religion has to offer.
To me, it is more believable that there is an intelligent designer, than to think that a cell became everything we see around us. Remember entropy? The law that everything degrades? This is a very evident scientific law, and is completely contrary to the theory of evolution.
So which do you believe? Science, or evolution? Because they don't seem to coincide very well.
I don't know, I just don't think that everything stemmed from a cell that magically appeared. I'd rather think that we have purposes, and are designed to carry out a function, rather than just some mess of molecules that just so happened to come into existance.
To me, it is more believable that there is an intelligent designer, than to think that a cell became everything we see around us. Remember entropy? The law that everything degrades? This is a very evident scientific law, and is completely contrary to the theory of evolution.
So which do you believe? Science, or evolution? Because they don't seem to coincide very well.
I don't know, I just don't think that everything stemmed from a cell that magically appeared. I'd rather think that we have purposes, and are designed to carry out a function, rather than just some mess of molecules that just so happened to come into existance.
Yes, I am familiar with the concept of Entropy. The questions is are you familiar with Negentropy? What about Free Energy? Ectropy?
I believe in science and evolution and if you don't think they coincide then I honestly don't know what to tell you without assuming the depth of your knowledge on the subject of evolution and biology. And honestly, I don't want to start a war of words.
How do you figure that a cell "magically appeared"? True there are many different possible explanations when on the subject of abiogenesis but none of them claim that cells magically appeared. It is religion who claims magic as the source of creation not science.
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Originally Posted by Saline
I'd rather think that we have purposes, and are designed to carry out a function, rather than just some mess of molecules that just so happened to come into existance.
What purpose do you want? What over all purpose do you believe we have?
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I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.[/
Last edited by Little Horn; 06-05-2008 at 04:46 PM.
Just the fact that even over billions over years it would be almost impossible that a singled-celled organism could produce a light-sensitive eye that would be able to see clearly by itself or the human brain that has 120 trillion interconnections by 12 billion cells and can make calculations in a second flat or thousands of hours of memory and that it could connect back to the eye. Or that elements that created the alleged single celled organism came from nowhere.
It seems like we are going in circles but I'll repeat: this can easily and plausibly explained by the concept of evolution, billions of years of breeding, etc. Although there is no way to show that evolution is indeed 100% correct, everything is perfectly reasonable, makes sense, and there is evidence to back up the theory.
There is no evidence to back up intelligent design, and it completely unreasonable based on what science has taught us. It relies on the supernatural and cannot be explained reasonably without talking about 'magic' which makes little to no sense.
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Because you are denying that Jesus was tortured and died for our sins, and you are denying the hard work of God that is life, ground, and the sea. You are saying god is invaluable and denying his existence as our creator, where as if a Christian is truly sorry and willing to change his ways to become a better being, god will know this and grant him that wish. Christianity is all about forgiveness after all...
Once again, you cannot deny something you don't believe exists, because it isn't there for me to deny. If God offered me (or anyone) his word and I denied, you'd have an argument but you don't. I'm using my brain (that you believe god gave me) to reach a reasonable and sensible conclusion based on evidence. If he gave me that gift, why would he punish me for using it? Please answer me that question.
What if the rules of Christianity worked in the court of law? What if someone killed hundreds of people and, raped and tortured hundreds of women. Will the judge allow him to go free unpunished if he is truly sorry? Should this man be allowed to walk the streets without even a day in jail? Christianity teaches that as long as he is sorry, the severity of the crime is unimportant.
Christianity also teaches that a person like myself will burn for eternity in the fires of hell without chance for forgiveness, for using the brain that god gave me. Even if I was a charity worker, saved lives, etc. None of that makes a difference.
If a loving god did indeed exist, he would not teach such hatred. But of course, ancient Christians who are trying to gain followers out of fear would have a reason to teach this.
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To me, it is more believable that there is an intelligent designer, than to think that a cell became everything we see around us. Remember entropy? The law that everything degrades? This is a very evident scientific law, and is completely contrary to the theory of evolution.
Please tell me how evolution and entropy are opposing because I'm not sure I understand where you are going. I don't pretend to be a chemistry expert but I have taken college chemisty.
Entropy is a law based on spontaneous processes, the randomness of a system, etc. An example would be iron naturally rusting to air or ice naturally melting at room temperature. Explain how this coincides with the theory of evolution.
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I'd rather think that we have purposes, and are designed to carry out a function, rather than just some mess of molecules that just so happened to come into existance.
It doesn't matter what you'd rather think; what matters is what is the truth. Apparently you'd rather believe in fantasy and supernatural than concrete evidence and reasoning.
Last edited by Rocky32189; 06-06-2008 at 09:56 AM.
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It seems like we are going in circles but I'll repeat: this can easily and plausibly explained by the concept of evolution, billions of years of breeding, etc. Although there is no way to show that evolution is indeed 100% correct, everything is perfectly reasonable, makes sense, and there is evidence to back up the theory.
There is no evidence to back up intelligent design, and it completely unreasonable based on what science has taught us. It relies on the supernatural and cannot be explained reasonably without talking about 'magic' which makes little to no sense.
What if science taught us was wrong? There is nothing 'magic' about it, in science there is no and there will never be any way to tell how the world began, But Religion can. Or how the body created these complex body parts that were proven almost impossible to create by itself. Or that the bloodline can be traced back to the suspected place of the Garden of Eden? How can you explain that there was once nothing at all in the whole universe and then one day the universe decided to make all planets, and elements for species and plants? Or how the brain is able to do amazing things such as play visual-realistic dreams or memorize keys on a keyboard, that created itself? I have presented much evidence, maybe not as 'concrete' as you would like.
You really have to open your mind, not everything can be displayed by hard evidence or else we would never know anything as scientists tend to use 'guesses' an example would be the mating habits or dinosaurs' and there skin color.. I didn't want to go this route but have you researched evolution by yourself? Have you literally taken a microscope and watched the genetic mutation of a gene and by yourself came to the conclusion of evolution without influence? If not, then your theory is as much a belief as mine is.
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Once again, you cannot deny something you don't believe exists, because it isn't there for me to deny. If God offered me (or anyone) his word and I denied, you'd have an argument but you don't. I'm using my brain (that you believe god gave me) to reach a reasonable and sensible conclusion based on evidence. If he gave me that gift, why would he punish me for using it? Please answer me that question.
You are the one going in circles and answering your own question. If god offers you his word and you say that is not the truth, that is denying. God gave your brain and life and the ability to free will, and of choice. You are allowed to believe whatever you want, but it is how strong your faith towards god is. If everybody believed in god, there would be no point of life, there would be no evils, we would be in heaven.
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What if the rules of Christianity worked in the court of law? What if someone killed hundreds of people and, raped and tortured hundreds of women. Will the judge allow him to go free unpunished if he is truly sorry? Should this man be allowed to walk the streets without even a day in jail? Christianity teaches that as long as he is sorry, the severity of the crime is unimportant.
Christianity also teaches that a person like myself will burn for eternity in the fires of hell without chance for forgiveness, for using the brain that god gave me. Even if I was a charity worker, saved lives, etc. None of that makes a difference.
Ha, you are thinking god is too lenient than he really is. For example, Genocide , Hateful Murders, Suicide are all unforgivable sins. And just because you think evolution is correct does not mean you're using your brain more than any Christian, you are just swayed differently.
To say that science will never explain these things is a completely ridiculous statement. Also, you keep talking about the complexity of our bodies and minds being proven almost impossible, but offer no proof of that.
Chris, the problem with your evidence is that not only is it shaky on its own, but it only really points to God, Intelligent Design, and truth in the Bible if you already assume those things to be true.
To say that science will never explain these things is a completely ridiculous statement.
So you think it is possible for scientists to find the elements that created the single celled organism, and what created those elements, and what created those, and what created those, etc.. I would really like to see that.
So you think it is possible for scientists to find the elements that created the single celled organism, and what created those elements, and what created those, and what created those, etc.. I would really like to see that.
I'd like to know how you know what the limits to scientific knowledge are.
Let's Just say,
Every single person on this entire earth (All 6,672,512,204 of Us)
Got down on our knees and prayed that every single child in Africa would be cured of whatever they have.
Would it happen?
NO!
Why?
BECAUSE THE PLACEBO EFFECT ONLY WORKS ON YOU!!!!
Let's Just say,
Every single person on this entire earth (All 6,672,512,204 of Us)
Got down on our knees and prayed that every single child in Africa would be cured of whatever they have.
Would it happen?
NO!
Why?
BECAUSE THE PLACEBO EFFECT ONLY WORKS ON YOU!!!!
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I'd like to know how you know what the limits of religion are.
I find it funny that this whole page is a discussion about the creation. Should it really affect you this much? You're living now, why is it so important to know something that even if you know, won't change the way you live? Christian or not. I believe evolution is more plausible than Intelligent Design, but I don't care how the first organism was put into existance. But arguing with a Christian about it, is like arguing with a wall that has "God" graffitied on it. That's all they can say to back up their statement, and even then, there's no proof of God. I would just let them believe in their imaginary friend. You can bring out every piece of evidence proving them wrong but they're too blind to see.
So you think it is possible for scientists to find the elements that created the single celled organism, and what created those elements, and what created those, and what created those, etc.. I would really like to see that.
Read about Stanley Miller and how he created organic matter (amino acids) from inorganic matter (gases such as ammonia and hydrogen). Also read about Sidney Fox and his experiments that demonstrate amino acids forming peptides.
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I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.[/
Why do you think that there is no tangible proof of God? If he exists, why doesn't he make himself known to us?
Look around you. All the nature and the organism, the perfection in the design of a living creature is proof enough of God's existence.
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Why do you choose to believe some parts of the bible and disregard others? For instance, the bible says that the earth is the center of the universe, when we obviously know this is wrong. What's to stop everything else from being wrong?
Well... I don't know where it says that and besides... the Bible also has stories written by people and some of them wrote what they used to think at the moment and not only that, you can't take everything in the bible literally.
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Do you believe that humans were the first organisms on earth? That is what the bible tells us, but fossil records show that significant life existed hundreds of millions of years before humans walked the earth.
The Bible doesn't say that in fact, it says otherwise. The Bible says in Genesis that the human being was the LAST creation of God. He made every other living organism in the first 5 days of the creation, then in the 6th day he made the human being.
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Do you believe in a virgin birth? An understanding of science and the reproductive cycle tells us this is impossible, yet we hear about it every year at Christmas time.
you're right. For science it is impossible but, we're talking about God here aren't we?
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Why does the bible tell us that good atheists go to hell but bad Christians (as long as they repent) go to heaven. Why would an all loving god follow such rules when there is no tangible proof of his existence?
I would just let them believe in their imaginary friend. You can bring out every piece of evidence proving them wrong but they're too blind to see.
This can be turned around the same way to many nonbelievers. No matter how clearly we say it and how much evidence we give them about God's existence they refuse to believe it.
Something I have a hard time fathoming is how most Christians follow the word of the Bible regardless of the many inconsistencies. If the Bible really is the word of God, why would He let it be marred with imperfection and loopholes? Is it not possible for the Bible to be a complete work of fiction, like a fairy-tale of sorts? What makes you think that the writers of the Bible weren't just creative writers with the means of spreading hope in bad times?
If I was Christian, I don't think I'd be able to follow the Bible through any method but faith, but what reason is there to put faith in something that has as much chance of being false as it does being true?
Now, put faith aside for this question. If you were approached with the option of carrying on into an after-life after a life-time of worshiping a higher power, but there was a 50% chance that you would never actually ascend/descend after your life of devotion, would you still take the risk?
Last edited by yoursavior; 07-19-2008 at 11:58 PM.
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