The only way to heaven is through Christ.

[BigMakk]

Originally Posted by Dark616

why does a wife like hearing "I love you" when she already knows this? because It is a show of caring.

Because the husband must show the wife directly that he still cares for her.

But God can do something better. He can know what the person's thoughts are, what they are capable of doing for him, how much they love him.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by HB99

Religion is all about BS...organized superstition...

According to the Bible Joshua was told by God to kill everyone and everything in the land. Excuse me, but these were people who did nothing against the people who left Egypt from the Exodus. Just like the Europeans who came to this country...they screwed the people already living here...attacked unprovoked just because God told them to do so. And this is really what God wanted, right? I doubt it.

As for Jesus stating anything in the Bible is BS too.

What we know today as Christianity really is a misnomer. It really should be called "Paulism"...it's what Paul "thought" Christ wanted. Christ never intended to start his own religion...if he had he probably would have been quoted on that too...

As far as the Bible saying that the only way to heaven is through him (John 14:6) only proves that ALL persons living before him didn't go to Heaven either.
Where's the logic in that?

Hmm...well, I can most certainly say you've never been brought up in a "churched" home, but you have some sort of grudge, be it personal or not, because your post reeks of both disdain and lack of knowledge pertaining to Biblical principles and history. This is what I hate most about people today, they look at one or two verses or stories and make wild claims and accusations with no real foundation. If this is rushed, I apologize, but I have Fire Emblem waiting for me, and this is hardly the first time I've had to deal with such questions. If I don't answer your questions properly, feel free to let me know.

Alright...in essence, everything on Earth is God's to command and influence, so if God wants to deliver a piece of land into the hands of His people, then He will do so. Everything God does is meant to further his own glory, so to give His people victory in combat is something oft explored in the Old Testament. It was only after Jesus that God's chosen people expanded to include people of every race and nation, and each lives under different governments, many led by non-Christian leaders. That is why we are commanded to submit to our authorities instead of incuring rebellion and war, because we are now under authorities other than God, though God will always by our #1, so to speak, above all others.

I suppose that all the disciples died right after Jesus? Don't forget, although Paul was a major leader in the Christian movement, he was in tune with the teachings of Christ for several reasons:

1) The disciples, who personally witnessed Christ's actions and teachings, worked closely with Paul in both letters and in person.
2) Paul already had an understanding of Christ's teachings beforehand, as many of his social class would have heard of such things.
3) Lastly, he was directly inspired by the Holy Spirit in his writings, so like any other scripture, his words in the letters collected in the New Testament are infallible. Now, I don't know for certain that each and every word out of Paul's mouth came directly from the Spirit, but the Disciples, who were the closest of any men to Christ and themselves thus inspired, agreed with the works of Paul considered to be canon in the Bible.

Aha, and this is where you miss one key component of the Bible: the people before and after Jesus lived under different covenants! God made conventants with the Israelites because of their sin. Certain regulations and laws were required. But they were still saved under them. However, when Jesus died, he brought about a negotiation of terms of these covnentants. He would go before the Father and be our mediator, rather than any earthly sacrifice or priest. He paid the price with His blood, and so, we now live through him instead of the covenant before His death. In short, Christ provided the service of the sacrifice for us, and made us all priests capable of talking to Him. He will answer to the Father for our sins.

Originally Posted by BigMakk

One last question: if God is omniscient, then why does he require sacrificing of other life just so that he knows (if these sacrificers were hypothetically that devoted to God) what he already supposedly knows, that these people are devoted to him?

Ah, now this is where the difference between unlimited free will and limited free will come into play. Allow me to set up a contrast: the God of Islam and the God of Christianity and Judaism. In Islam, God is not bound to anything; he can do whatever he wants. In fact, you could follow the Qur'an to the letter at all times and still go to Hell. Why? Becuase God doesn't feel like letting you into Heaven. In fact, Muslim scholars have even said that those who "gain God's favor" through holy war are not as secure in salvation as they now think. His favor is only that, and not a true guarantee. This is called unlimited free will, because he can do anything, even things not in his nature to do. Now, in Christianity and Judaism, God has limited free will. He can do anything He wants to, but only things in accordance to His nature. For instance, God is a logical God, so he cannot make a married bachelor. It can't logically exist. He also can't make a rock too heavy for Him to carry, for there is nothing He can't do. Again, this is all in accordance to His nature. If he had unlimited free will, he could make something to heavy for him to carry, because He could commit such logical fallacies.

So, what does this have to do with anything? A lot. Sin is the polar opposite to God's nature. He simply cannot exist with it. He knows they have complete devotion to Him. However, the only way to pay for sin is with blood. That's just it. So, it took the eternal blood of a sinless man who was also God to pay for this sin once and for all. Rather than paying again and again under the old covenant, the debt has been paid, once and for all.

[BigMakk]

Originally Posted by Locke

Rather than paying again and again under the old covenant, the debt has been paid, once and for all.

Damn, I wanted to sacrifice some animals

[EndUnknown]

Originally Posted by BigMakk

Because the husband must show the wife directly that he still cares for her.

not true. It is unnecessary, but greatly appreciated.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Dark616

not true. It is unnecessary, but greatly appreciated.

1 Peter 3:7 would beg to disagree with you.

"Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers."

In other words, husbands need to care for and repect their wives, or else their relationship with God will be adversely affected. Oh, and by the way, "weaker partner" is in no way a sexist remark either. Women are equal to men before God, but in marriage the women is expected to defer to the man unless he himself is in the wrong. If that is the case, it is her responsibility to bring that before him in the standard chain of church discipline(1 to 1, then with a witness or two, then to the church body).

[Atrocious]

Originally Posted by Matt17e

"And this is the way to have eternal life - to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth" (John 17:3)

This all made sense, Jesus just died for our sins... so we'll go around and spread the word to other parts of the land. But did God forget about the America's? What do Christian beleive happen to the countless number of natives for the 1500 years?

Christian America wasn't around in "Jesus's time", so how can it be forgotten?
Christianity was only in the Middle East at that time too, then it started going into Eastern and Western Europe, with the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, if I'm not mistaken. Then when settlers, conquistadors, and armed forces came to the Americas was it's religion converted to Christianity.

[Gow616]

Originally Posted by Atrocious

Then when settlers, conquistadors, and armed forces came to the Americas was it's religion converted to Christianity.

Land does not have a religion. The people inhabiting it do.

[Atrocious]

Originally Posted by Gow616

Land does not have a religion. The people inhabiting it do.

Sorry I didn't specify it down enough for people of your intelligence.

[sheepandshepherd]

Ummm . . . Revelations is full of difficult figurative language, but I think what it says is that all those who do believe in Christ will be taken to Heaven in the Rapture (not right after they die), the rest will stay behind on Earth. A lot of bad things will happen, and the people left behind will be given another chance to repent and be forgiven. It also says the dead will walk . . . I'm guessing that means the people such as the Native Americans, who never got the second chance Christ gave us, will come back to life and be included in this "third chance" to repent.

I agree that it would be unfair to send someone to hell just because they never heard of Jesus . . . but the Bible also says that a person will NOT be punished for a sin that they didn't know was wrong. There's actually a specific reference to the Roman Empire somewhere in the New Testament that says that the Romans wouldn't have been punished for not believing in Christ before they had heard of him.

As for the Conquistadors converting the Native Americans and the Europeans trying to conquer the Middle East, this is NOT what the Bible tells Christians to do. Our job is to WITNESS, not to force our religion on people. That means we should TELL people about God, nothing more. If they don't want to believe it, that's their own choice and their own problem. Also, unless you willingly accept Christ, you're not going to get His forgiveness. That means that forcing someone to believe in Christianity the way the Spanish Conquistadors did isn't going to save them, they have to make that decision themselves.

Why does God not prove to us that he's real? Good question. The price for entering Heaven is small and simple: you have to have faith in God. That means you have to believe in Him without having any proof. It may seem unfair to those who don't believe in God, but why would He forgive you for your sins if you don't believe He's gonna do it?

[Gow616]

Originally Posted by Atrocious

Sorry I didn't specify it down enough for people of your intelligence.

I'll explain myself "higher" minus pointless statements...religion or lack of it is a variable and subject to change. Although Christianity was introduced to the land, Christianity was changed in the way it was practised. Not to mention that quite a few indigenous tribes still practice their non-Christian religion such as the Yupiks, Tlinglit, Navajo, Comanche, Apache, Kiowa, etcetera. Answering the question asking what Christians believe happened to the pre-Christian indigenous people with a "Christian America was around Jesus's time" fails to answer the question does it not?

If I remember my Christianity right, it is believed that they are sent to purgatory or some limbo until they can come to the full realization of God's existence or served time, whatever. They don't go to hell inasmuch as they just did not know God therefore they can be prayed so that are allowed to go to Heaven. This belief heavily influences Hispanic culture who are descendants of a mixing of indigenous, Spaniard and African. Ever wonder why Mexico has a Day of the Dead (Dia de los muertos)?

Look at the grand picture though, each religion seems to be this way. No way to paradise unless through whoever. The who changes from religion to religion but the idea remains the same.

In the end, it is the people who differ from land to land that will develop their religion and that religion will be different to a certain extent. Thus the land does not have religion, the people do.

Praise Bob!

[sheepandshepherd]

Mmmm, don't forget also that there are many very different branches of Christianity. Non-Catholics don't believe in Purgatory because the Bible never mentions it once, and obviously, different branches have different beliefs on what missionaries are supposed to do.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by sheepandshepherd

Ummm . . . Revelations is full of difficult figurative language, but I think what it says is that all those who do believe in Christ will be taken to Heaven in the Rapture (not right after they die), the rest will stay behind on Earth. A lot of bad things will happen, and the people left behind will be given another chance to repent and be forgiven. It also says the dead will walk . . . I'm guessing that means the people such as the Native Americans, who never got the second chance Christ gave us, will come back to life and be included in this "third chance" to repent.

I agree that it would be unfair to send someone to hell just because they never heard of Jesus . . . but the Bible also says that a person will NOT be punished for a sin that they didn't know was wrong. There's actually a specific reference to the Roman Empire somewhere in the New Testament that says that the Romans wouldn't have been punished for not believing in Christ before they had heard of him.

As for the Conquistadors converting the Native Americans and the Europeans trying to conquer the Middle East, this is NOT what the Bible tells Christians to do. Our job is to WITNESS, not to force our religion on people. That means we should TELL people about God, nothing more. If they don't want to believe it, that's their own choice and their own problem. Also, unless you willingly accept Christ, you're not going to get His forgiveness. That means that forcing someone to believe in Christianity the way the Spanish Conquistadors did isn't going to save them, they have to make that decision themselves.

Why does God not prove to us that he's real? Good question. The price for entering Heaven is small and simple: you have to have faith in God. That means you have to believe in Him without having any proof. It may seem unfair to those who don't believe in God, but why would He forgive you for your sins if you don't believe He's gonna do it?

Well, I really don't want to talk about most of this, because I know I've already talked about how pre-Trib (a.k.a. Left Behind) is bull, but there was one thing that piqued my attention, your last paragraph actually. Since when was any part of salvation our fault? Since when did something we do influence who goes to Heaven or not? Jesus died on the cross, and God "elects" His children. Christians are only the agents of His predetermined grand plan. After all, everyone has fallen short of the glory of God, no? We can't "have faith" in God. We are given faith in God. Human nature is fundamentally, diametrically opposed to God. We cannot choose God. God chooses us.

Well, while I'm at it, I may as well say at least something about everything else here. Hmm..first off, the pre-Trib view has little Biblical support. Even a simple Google search will reveal myriads of Scripture in support of post- and even mid-Trib views, and numerous arguments against pre-Trib. For instance, when the Bible says that God will "preserve us" in the end times, some people think it means the Rapture. It doesn't. His preservation is His protection and support. It's a reminder that God is always with us, not some sort of instant magical salvation. And the dead will walk? That refers to dead people, yes, but all dead people. And it refers not to another chance, but to the final judgement. The dead are not granted life on Earth, merely woken from their sleep.

Where does it say that we can't be punished for something we didn't know was wrong? I was pretty sure that the Bible was clear that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and that there is no other way to Heaven but through Christ and his atoning blood. Now, before Christ, there was a different coventant between man and God, and it was the law that the Jews lived by. However, Christ became the substitute for all of the law, because He became our mediator before God. We no longer have to deal directly with our own sins, because Jesus will be on our side. Now, this sin't to say that we're free to do whatever we want either. Paul said it best: "For me, everything is lawful, but not everything is beneficial." So yes, I could go postal and kill someone and I would still go to Heaven. But would that be good for anyone, least of all me? No. It is direct rebellion against God and my fellow man. So in short, we can have salvation in Christ, and only through Christ. There is no other Biblical way to live.

Originally Posted by Gow616

If I remember my Christianity right, it is believed that they are sent to purgatory or some limbo until they can come to the full realization of God's existence or served time, whatever. They don't go to hell inasmuch as they just did not know God therefore they can be prayed so that are allowed to go to Heaven. This belief heavily influences Hispanic culture who are descendants of a mixing of indigenous, Spaniard and African. Ever wonder why Mexico has a Day of the Dead (Dia de los muertos)?

Well, only the Catholics, the Mormons, and a few other minor branches and sects would hold to a "limbo." Now, as to what exactly happens when we die is still heavily debated, but there are two main possibilities.

1) When we die, we are immediately in God's presence and are judged.
2) When we die, we "sleep" until Christ's return. However, this is not a purgatory of any sort, as our fates are already set the moment we die.

[Gow616]

Originally Posted by sheepandshepherd

Mmmm, don't forget also that there are many very different branches of Christianity. Non-Catholics don't believe in Purgatory because the Bible never mentions it once, and obviously, different branches have different beliefs on what missionaries are supposed to do.

Originally Posted by Gow616

Look at the grand picture though, each religion seems to be this way. No way to paradise unless through whomever. The person/diety changes from religion to religion but the idea remains the same.

In the end, it is the people who differ from land to land that will develop their religion and that religion will be different to a certain extent. Thus the land does not have religion, the people do.

Just using a general example but I should have put it down as Catholic Christianity even though all forms of Christianity do stem from that first Christian religion.

Any ways, I will quit arguing for the Christians and just stick to history, philosophy, Eris and Bob.

Apollonius Christ, praise Bob!