On The Subject of Morality

[Little Horn]

Originally Posted by Dark616

of course religion isn't the be all end all of morals. to believe that is foolish. does it help keep people in line? yes, but morality would exist without it(albeit the morality would be different)

Different how?

[ChrisV1]

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

But does it have to take Christianity to teach someone what the difference between right and wrong is? Is it possible, to teach morals without religion? Would it be fair to say that I could teach a "moralless" (I think I just made that word up) person the difference between right and wrong and what is acceptable and what isn't just as well as any Christian?

I'm not refuting your claim just trying to expand on it a little is all...

No not at all. I think most atheists know right and wrong indefinitely. But there are a very select few selfish individuals that I personally have met that think that no rules apply to them. They could Steal from someone or bully another person without a second glance. I could not see how you could teach those kind of people the significance of right & wrong without religion. Perhaps if they were bullied or stolen from that may sway their morals since they have experienced it themselves, but that is the only non-religious solution I can see happening.

[Little Horn]

Originally Posted by ChrisV1

No not at all. I think most atheists know right and wrong indefinitely. But there are a very select few selfish individuals that I personally have met that think that no rules apply to them. They could Steal from someone or bully another person without a second glance. I could not see how you could teach those kind of people the significance of right & wrong without religion. Perhaps if they were bullied or stolen from that may sway their morals since they have experienced it themselves, but that is the only non-religious solution I can see happening.

I think it would vary from person to person. i woulnd't be so bold as to say that religion is the ONLY way to sway someone's outlook on how they interact with other people. I would say that it could almost be split down the middle...

[Evander]

Originally Posted by Saline

At it's core, Christianity is based off "Love one another because Christ first loved us and it doesn't matter what you do, Christ will forgive you if you ask". But, as many of us have already been over, religious fanatics skew facts to their own advantages.

the concepts of "love your neighbor..." and "do unto others..." existed in Judaism before Jesus was even born. Chistianity added the salvation/damnation angle in to the mix, which has, I believe, had an unfortunate effect on morality, because many people behave "properly" for the wrong reasons.

It's better to do the right thing for the wrong reasons than not to do it at all, but it is the conditioning I worry about. A child who is raised to do the right thing simply because it is right will do that same right thing regardless of what he may grow to believe in, but a child who only behaves because they believe that God is watching them may change their behavior if they later decide that God doesn't exist, or that God exists, but isn't watching, etc.

[Evander]

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

I think that morality is ultimately selfish in nature

There is no such thing as a self-less act, in ALL areas. Even if you sacrifice your life to save some one else, it is because you would not have been able to live with yourself if you hadn't.

It is impossible to seperate yourself from yourself, because that is intrinsic to our nature.



The key is to look at how much some one is able to empathize withothers, and to see themselves within them.



The great Rabbi Hillel (who lived during the 1st century, BCE) used to teach "That which is hateful unto thineself, do not do unto others." You may have heard other versions of this phrase, but this is the one that Hillel taught, and it is the one that best exemplifies how morality works. It is the idenification of yourself in other people, and then going forward and avoiding behaviors that you yourself would be bothered by. Accoring to Hillel, this one sentance is a summary of the entire Torah.

[EndUnknown]

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

Different how?

There probably wouldn't be as much of a negative stigma on gay people, and all of the religiously fuelled morality issues would probably be less of an issue.

[Little Horn]

Originally Posted by Evander

There is no such thing as a self-less act, in ALL areas. Even if you sacrifice your life to save some one else, it is because you would not have been able to live with yourself if you hadn't.

It is impossible to seperate yourself from yourself, because that is intrinsic to our nature..

Agreed. This is the point that I was attempting to make but I guess, failed to do so.

[Atrocious]

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

This is something else entirely Atrocious. This has little to do with the topic at hand which is "Is religion necessary to have morality". We can sit here and argue all day about the evils of religion but it's not going to get any of us anywhere and it's completely off topic...

Yeah I know, I tried to get an example, but after I posted it, i realized it wasn't what I should be aiming for.

[Little Horn]

Originally Posted by Dark616

There probably wouldn't be as much of a negative stigma on gay people, and all of the religiously fuelled morality issues would probably be less of an issue.

On the issues of Homosexuality, I would have to disagree with you. I know, personally a handful of bigoted Atheists and Secularists that view homosexuality as being against the natural order and treat Gays the same way some religionists might treat them.

I still think that above all, fear of things that you can not understand will always outweigh common sense.

[Atrocious]

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

I still think that above all, fear of things that you can not understand will always outweigh common sense.

Quote for Truth, I'm glad I finally heard someone else say that.

[Evander]

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

On the issues of Homosexuality, I would have to disagree with you. I know, personally a handful of bigoted Atheists and Secularists that view homosexuality as being against the natural order and treat Gays the same way some religionists might treat them.

I still think that above all, fear of things that you can not understand will always outweigh common sense.

I would argue that you aquaintances are more influenced by religion than you, and possibly they themselves, realize.

How could a person NOT understand Homosexuality? The love between two gay men or women is the same as the love between a straight couple. It is simply not different enough for the fear of the unknown to take any effect.



Anti-Gay sentiment does not come from within; it is influenced on to people by society. In fact, the natural instinct of a heterosexual male upon stumbling on a homosexual male would be a NON-THREAT reaction, since the homosexual is not a sexual rival.

I could go on, but I think my point is clear enough. Anti-gay sentiment is not some kind of natural reaction; it is one that is either learned or taught.

[HipHopScribe]

Morals don't originate with religion, in fact I'd say religion in a way is itself just another moral some people hold. Morals come from our nature as social animals, we evolved to exist in communities, some sort of code is necessary to regulate a community, so we develop that code. I think organized religion developed as a way to disseminate that moral code among a larger number of people, who don't necessarily all have daily interactions with each other, which unfortunately also leaves religion as the perfect tool for those in power to push their own agenda.

If religion itself is in fact seen as a moral virtue, and a key one, then it is not odd that many religious people would have an issue with atheists, who deviate from that. At the same time, even though atheist reject religion and the belief in God, they are still living in societies largely shaped by religion, with societal morals that can't be separated from morals advocated by religion, and therefore are inescapably influenced by religious morals in their life.