A question for a christian.

[Saidas]

Honoring does not always mean obeying. Honor means respect and respect has to be earned. Neither parents nor children are right all of the time. Having said that, it is difficult for children to fully understand the context of their parents decisions because of their age and inexperience. Parents often project their insecurities, fears, judements, etc. onto their children as they do with the rest of the world; we all do. If you really know that your parents love you and want the best for you, then you can look past a lot of the other negatives and see them for what they are and focus on the positive. Your parents might truly be disfunctional yet still love you a lot and try to do what they think is best for you. Some people will let you love them up close and others only at a distance. Try to distinguish between your emotions and projections and your wisdom of what is right and wrong in any situation. This is all any of us can do at any point in our lives but can be very tricky to do sucessfully.

I personally don't see God as this great paternal figure who judges and condems us and who would ever have us suffer...especially for eternity. This is a very Judeo/Christian concept. If we shouldn't judge, then why would God? Aren't we made in His image? If you were a parent, would you want your children to suffer? Of course not. Then why would God? The only reason a parent would ever want that would be if he/she knew it would help the child in the long run...to learn and grow.

This is why Eastern philosophy has always appealed to me. It makes far more sense.You can either believe in God or not; it doesn't matter. Karma=you reap what you so. There is no way we could learn everything and set everything right in just one life. If you do believe in a personal God then God allows you to learn what you need to by working it out through experience. What better way could there be? So then it isn't a matter of forvgiving or forgetting by some great paternal Sky God figure. If you don't believe in a personal God, that's fine; the rules for moral or righteous living are the same.

[mr.handsomeman]

Originally Posted by Saidas

Honoring does not always mean obeying. Honor means respect and respect has to be earned. Neither parents nor children are right all of the time. Having said that, it is difficult for children to fully understand the context of their parents decisions because of their age and inexperience. Parents often project their insecurities, fears, judements, etc. onto their children as they do with the rest of the world; we all do. If you really know that your parents love you and want the best for you, then you can look past a lot of the other negatives and see them for what they are and focus on the positive. Your parents might truly be disfunctional yet still love you a lot and try to do what they think is best for you. Some people will let you love them up close and others only at a distance. Try to distinguish between your emotions and projections and your wisdom of what is right and wrong in any situation. This is all any of us can do at any point in our lives but can be very tricky to do sucessfully.

I personally don't see God as this great paternal figure who judges and condems us and who would ever have us suffer...especially for eternity. This is a very Judeo/Christian concept. If we shouldn't judge, then why would God? Aren't we made in His image? If you were a parent, would you want your children to suffer? Of course not. Then why would God? The only reason a parent would ever want that would be if he/she knew it would help the child in the long run...to learn and grow.

This is why Eastern philosophy has always appealed to me. It makes far more sense.You can either believe in God or not; it doesn't matter. Karma=you reap what you so. There is no way we could learn everything and set everything right in just one life. If you do believe in a personal God then God allows you to learn what you need to by working it out through experience. What better way could there be? So then it isn't a matter of forvgiving or forgetting by some great paternal Sky God figure. If you don't believe in a personal God, that's fine; the rules for moral or righteous living are the same.

thanks for the quite, calm, non-harassing, overall really good response. I liked reading it, and I respect you and why you would rather believe in Eastern Philosophy.

[Saidas]

Floorpuncher.

<I am truly sorry you wasted 32 years studying false religions> Don't be so judgemental! You know nothing about me or what I know. As I said, I make a distinction between religion and spirituality and I am definitely not the former. How can you intelligently speak about something you know virtually nothing about?

<Focusing too much on religion (and thus emphasizing the rules and practices) only suffocates God from where you need Him most--your life> I couldn't agree with you more!

<So I say this with love> Do you think your tone has been a loving one here Floorpuncher?

< don't try to convince other humans of what is completely wrong> Read the text. I haven't

<but rather fear God himself, because He is the One you will eventually answer to, whether you like it or not> Another very Judeo/Christian concept Floorpuncher. I don't fear God. I love God. Do you realy believe God wants you to fear Him? Fear and judgement is for tyrants.

[mr.handsomeman]

Originally Posted by Saidas

Floorpuncher.

<I am truly sorry you wasted 32 years studying false religions> Don't be so judgemental! You know nothing about me or what I know. As I said, I make a distinction between religion and spirituality and I am definitely not the former. How can you intelligently speak about something you know virtually nothing about?

<Focusing too much on religion (and thus emphasizing the rules and practices) only suffocates God from where you need Him most--your life> I couldn't agree with you more!

<So I say this with love> Do you think your tone has been a loving one here Floorpuncher?

< don't try to convince other humans of what is completely wrong> Read the text. I haven't

<but rather fear God himself, because He is the One you will eventually answer to, whether you like it or not> Another very Judeo/Christian concept Floorpuncher. I don't fear God. I love God. Do you realy believe God wants you to fear Him? Fear and judgement is for tyrants.

Saidas, are you a christian?

[Saidas]

Mr. Handsomeman - I'm not a Christian. Growing up I went to Catholic, Protestant, and Baptisit churches, but found that they didn't satisfy me. In my early twenties I discovered Eastern spiritual philosophies that did. Aside from certain proprietary, dogmatic Judeo/Christian beliefs, mine in essense, are probably not much different. I believe in one God that has many names and many forms, yet ultimately has neither. "The waves are many but the ocean is one. The stars are many but the sky is one." Your mother doesn't care in the least what name you call her by. The sound of your voice to her is always sweet and is heard with love. God can certainly not be less than that.

[mr.handsomeman]

Originally Posted by Saidas

Mr. Handsomeman - I'm not a Christian. Growing up I went to Catholic, Protestant, and Baptisit churches, but found that they didn't satisfy me. In my early twenties I discovered Eastern spiritual philosophies that did. Aside from certain proprietary, dogmatic Judeo/Christian beliefs, mine in essense, are probably not much different. I believe in one God that has many names and many forms, yet ultimately has neither. "The waves are many but the ocean is one. The stars are many but the sky is one." Your mother doesn't care in the least what name you call her by. The sound of your voice to her is always sweet and is heard with love. God can certainly not be less than that.

wow, you sound so wise, and......well.....old. How old are you? I imagine an old school professor with spectacles and a long beard. Like Dumbledore.

[Saidas]

Not quite. I've had 55 birthdays, though no one thinks I'm anywhere near that. When I started my spritual life I was 22 yo and dealing craps in Las Vegas and living phatt...'da Benz, 'da crib, stable full of women, drugs, you name it. I subsequently went to India for six months and it changed my life. I've spent most of this time studying, reflecting, and hopefully living this...hence the perhaps sounding "wise"

[Beausiph]

talking to god= prayer
god talking to you= schizophrenia

[Saidas]

Good one Beauseph!!!

[Beausiph]

Originally Posted by Saidas

Good one Beauseph!!!

Well thank you

[Little Horn]

Originally Posted by Saidas

Hey Floorpuncher - Just because you don't understand what I'm saying doesn't mean that I haven't said anything. Why the attitude? If you dropped it, you might understand.

<Here again is a perfect example of a Christian telling other Christians how prayer works and what it means to be truly righteous> Really? A perfect example? I'm not even a Christian, not even close, and who said anything about righteousness? I practice a Buddhist/Hindu path and have studied world religion and philosophy and have for about 32 years and I make a distinction between religion and spirituality. Don't you think you are being a bit judemental...especially since you don't really know what you are talking about and are, rather, just reacting emotionally?

<Prayer isn't something that takes practice> And what do you base your comment on? What is your experience with prayer? Have you actually studied or spent time in a monestary of any faith with people that "do it for a living"? Meditation takes many years of practice to become adept at it as every monk will attest to. Why should prayer be any different?

<No one is going to be willing to listen to the other if nothing but attacks are being thrown out in order to make your respective> Isn't this exactly what you are doing?

Fair enough... I jumped to a conclusion in regards to your religious alignments and I apologize. However, I still feel that you are fundamentally wrong in your assertion that prayer takes practice. Or perhaps I am not, as you so boldly infer, fully understanding what you are saying.

I do have to say, that I was not attacking you per se. I was attacking Christian fundamentalism and the stranglehold that the churches as well as the church leaders has on the common people. I'll admit, that I was in the wrong to jump to the conclusion that you were a Christian and once again, I apologize. This does not discredit my overall argument however.

The subject matter of this post was prayer and how it relate to Christianity not Hindu or Buddhism. You make it a point to lump meditation and prayer into the same category and I disagree with you. If you subscribe to any of the Abrahamic based religions then you believe that God, the creator, is all knowing. If this was the case there is no need for prayer in the traditional sense of the word. True or false? God would know what it is that you want from him. he would understand instantly how you felt about a particular situation. To practice prayer would then seem like a moot point.

Please explain to me, the difference between religion and spirituality.

I also like how you made it a point on more than one occasion to insult my intelligence and claim to understand the depth of my knowledge and understanding. And it was very amusing to see you direct an argument back at me that I didn't post in the first place. You know, the one about wasting 32 years of your life... Yeah. I didn't post that one.

[Saidas]

Floorpuncher - Your tone is quite negative...as in hostile. If you read again what I said, I didn't say you were unintelligent...I said you didn't know what you were talking about...as in uninformed. Quite different.

<You make it a point to lump meditation and prayer into the same category and I disagree with you.> OK. Here's your chance to show me what you know. What, in your opinion, is the fundamental difference between the two that they can't be in the same "catagory"?

<If you subscribe to any of the Abrahamic based religions then you believe that God, the creator, is all knowing. If this was the case there is no need for prayer in the traditional sense of the word. True or false?> False. For one thing, the original Abrahamic religion is Judiasm. Have you ever been to a synagogue? Have you ever heard a reading of the Torah? Lots of prayer. I assume you've heard of the Western (Wailing) Wall in Jerusalem...the wall of the Jewish Second Temple? People go there to pray. The Torah is placed on the head and they pray like crazy. You will see hundreds of prayers on paper folded and placed into the cracks.

<God would know what it is that you want from him. he would understand instantly how you felt about a particular situation. To practice prayer would then seem like a moot point.> Your assumption is that people pray because they think God doesn't know what they want. I agree with you...of course He knows...He knows before even we do. He wouldn't be God otherwise, eh? Prayer is one of the ways humans "communicate" with their Creator. It is for our benefit, not God's.

<Please explain to me, the difference between religion and spirituality.> Big topic, but in short to me religion is the beliefs, rules, specific teachings, etc. adhered to by people. It is a man-made construct, and as such, is inherently flawed at best and corrupt at worse. Btw...I happen to share your thoughts about fundamentalism. In contrast, spirituality is the essense, the inherent Truth religions are based on, free of the dogma, control, narrowmindedness, etc. found in all religions today.

Unfortunately, God gets a bad rap because of religion. Alot of people become agnostic or atheistic because of relgious bs. Also unfortunately, in my opinion, modern Christianity has become a non-thinking man's religion for most...a "Bible says it, I belive it, that settles it mentality". People know how to parrot back what they hear being regurgitated by the ministor, pastor, priest, but ask them to expound beyond chapter and verse and more regurgitation,they are lost. Islam doesn't fare any better.

Yeah, sorry about the response meant for Skyrocket. I had only been making them to you and didn't see him sneak in!

I'm happy to have the discourse, but lets keep the tone civil shall we?

[Little Horn]

Originally Posted by Saidas

Floorpuncher - Your tone is quite negative...as in hostile. If you read again what I said, I didn't say you were unintelligent...I said you didn't know what you were talking about...as in uninformed. Quite different.

<You make it a point to lump meditation and prayer into the same category and I disagree with you.> OK. Here's your chance to show me what you know. What, in your opinion, is the fundamental difference between the two that they can't be in the same "catagory"?

<If you subscribe to any of the Abrahamic based religions then you believe that God, the creator, is all knowing. If this was the case there is no need for prayer in the traditional sense of the word. True or false?> False. For one thing, the original Abrahamic religion is Judiasm. Have you ever been to a synagogue? Have you ever heard a reading of the Torah? Lots of prayer. I assume you've heard of the Western (Wailing) Wall in Jerusalem...the wall of the Jewish Second Temple? People go there to pray. The Torah is placed on the head and they pray like crazy. You will see hundreds of prayers on paper folded and placed into the cracks.

<God would know what it is that you want from him. he would understand instantly how you felt about a particular situation. To practice prayer would then seem like a moot point.> Your assumption is that people pray because they think God doesn't know what they want. I agree with you...of course He knows...He knows before even we do. He wouldn't be God otherwise, eh? Prayer is one of the ways humans "communicate" with their Creator. It is for our benefit, not God's.

<Please explain to me, the difference between religion and spirituality.> Big topic, but in short to me religion is the beliefs, rules, specific teachings, etc. adhered to by people. It is a man-made construct, and as such, is inherently flawed at best and corrupt at worse. Btw...I happen to share your thoughts about fundamentalism. In contrast, spirituality is the essense, the inherent Truth religions are based on, free of the dogma, control, narrowmindedness, etc. found in all religions today.

Unfortunately, God gets a bad rap because of religion. Alot of people become agnostic or atheistic because of relgious bs. Also unfortunately, in my opinion, modern Christianity has become a non-thinking man's religion for most...a "Bible says it, I belive it, that settles it mentality". People know how to parrot back what they hear being regurgitated by the ministor, pastor, priest, but ask them to expound beyond chapter and verse and more regurgitation,they are lost. Islam doesn't fare any better.

Yeah, sorry about the response meant for Skyrocket. I had only been making them to you and didn't see him sneak in!

I'm happy to have the discourse, but lets keep the tone civil shall we?

I apologize if my last post came across as being Hostile. Save the last paragraph, the overall theme of my post was not meant to be hostile or negative.

I agree to the extent that religion, in short, corrupts everything about the basic idea of a god. However, I also feel that spirituality is essentially nothing more than a euphemism for religion. It is still man trying to understand God and the supernatural. How can you have "truths" about God without man's interpretation of what God is. This IS religion.

You have to keep in mind that above all, I am an Atheist. My original post on the subject of prayer being a moot point because of the omniscience of God was to play Devil's Advocate. I was not arguing the point that meditation and prayer can't be in the same category. My argument was that if you take into consideration your idea of "practice makes perfect" and compare it to typical Judea-Christian-Islamic idea of prayer it seems illogical and rather silly and visa versa. In this particular case they can not be lumped together. At least not in my mind anyhow. Perhaps I am missing something.

I'm not saying that one way is right and the other is wrong. As far I believe both sides are wrong and complete rubbish.

I'm aware that Judaism was the first Abrahamic belief system and I'm well aware of the origins of Christianity and Islam at least in the sense of how they came to be from Jewish traditions. I have been to a Synagogue on a couple of occasions and I'm well aware of the wailing wall. I'm also very aware of the role that prayer plays in not only Judaism but Christianity and Islam as well. My argument though, is that it seems to be a redundant act in my mind. That's the only point I was trying to make.

Once again, I've put my foot in my mouth very early on in this discussion and I aim to keep it out of there. I am not attempting to be hostile, or condescending. I would ask that you do the same and perhaps this can go somewhere and we can each learn a thing or two.

[SilentWalrus]

Religion is 'bollocks'
Technically all faiths started as cults and some still are.
*cough* Christianity (people trying to convert you) *cough*

[Saidas]

Much better Floorpuncher...now I can hear 'ya. A spiritual teacher once said to me that we should be born in a church, but not die in one. This means that we should learn and take what is good from a religion then (they all have good) then move away from the confines of it. Most of us in this country judge religion by modern Christianity and a very limited knowledge and experience with Islam. Both are corrupted. Thats why many people like me started looking Eastward.

Most people throughout human history have wondered what life is about and what our purpose here is and religions are formed to help answer these questions. But as I said before, man is flawed and religions are man made so they become flawed (Im being generous using this word).

All of the things you don't like about religion I don't like either and is why I'm not a "religious" guy. I practice Advaita Vedanta (wiki Vedanta then see Advaita Vendanta below) which is free of religious dogma and bs.

[zunebro]

Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Have you invited the Holy Spirit into your life?
Anyway most people pray entirely wrong. There is a true pattern to a prayerful life. It also says never cease in doing so..

1) If you have your own motives clear your head first.... "Our Father..."
2) Prayer starts with worship. ... "Holy is your name..."
3) You seek His righteousness and His Will for not only yourself but everyone... "Your will be done in this earth as it is in Heaven"
4) Still not personal .... "Give us your daily bread..."
5) Seek forgiveness.... "And forgive us..." - note: still not personal
6) Seek direction... "Lead us..."
7) Seek deliverance... "But deliver us..."
8) Ends in worship... You are the Kingdom and the Power forever"

Most people never here God audibly I have and it's indescribable. There were also times where all I did was worship and I heard sound like a thousand birds by running water and had a rush of wind in a closed house.

Most times it's that still quiet voice, unctions or conscious whatever you choose to call it.

For instance you're driving and something tell you to slow down and next thing you know some crazy driver has a wreck right in front of you...

Or the worst feeling I have ever felt in my life... the day before hurricane Katrina. I fought God before I left. I knew we weren't going back to New Orleans. Our area was under 10 ft of water so we pretty much lost everything. That was the last time I ever questioned that inner voice.

Originally Posted by collver

Why is it you think that prayer is so important to you, I have tried to pray many times through out my life, sometimes in excess of an hour, and have never gotten any sensation other than talking to a wall. When I am at church with my friends they all talk about how god speaks to them as they pray, yet all I sense is air. And they tell me that my life will be so much better if I just prayed more, yet I feel my life has gone pretty swell enough with out a higher power.

[Little Horn]

Originally Posted by Saidas

This means that we should learn and take what is good from a religion then (they all have good) then move away from the confines of it.

I have to disagree with you here. I have a very difficult time understanding the good in religion. In the words of Christopher Hitchens, Religion Poisons Everything. I see no good in millions of people living a delusional life. There is nothing good about teaching children fairy tales and quoting them as truth. There is nothing good about telling a child that if they don't believe in God or if they sin they will burn in hell for eternity. There is nothing good about blowing yourself up along with a handful of civilians on a bus. There is nothing good about forcing the idea upon millions of people that somehow we are born sinful, and dirty. That our bodies are filthy and that we should be ashamed of ourselves for fantasizing about sex or even doing the nasty.

We can argue about how religion instills morality and teaches valuable lessons but I disagree. We don't need outdated writings to teach morals. If anyone honestly believes that we are entirely incapable of understanding right and wrong and the difference between inappropriate and appropriate behavior then they're a dolt. I take high offense to the notion that without religion we would have no notion of right and wrong. I find it insulting that anyone would think that we are that primitive.

What good, has ever or will ever come from religion?

Originally Posted by Saidas

All of the things you don't like about religion I don't like either and is why I'm not a "religious" guy. I practice Advaita Vedanta (wiki Vedanta then see Advaita Vendanta below) which is free of religious dogma and bs.

I did get an opportunity to look into this and I'm curious to dig a little deeper. However, based off of what I read on Wiki, I have to say that I think it's just as delusional as the rest of them. This is again man, attempting to understand "God" or, our existence and the existence of everything around us with very little to no evidence in support of his claim.

I'm not blasting off at the mouth. There is no hostility in my words and this is simply my opinion and how I see the world. I'm curious to hear what you feel the "good" that religion has to offer because I see none.

Zunebro:

I have not accepted nor will I ever accept Jesus Christ and my Lord and Savior.