A Few Questions

[Little Horn]

As I’m sure that most of you are aware by now, I am not a Christian. In most cases I absolutely despise religion and the way that it manipulates, otherwise intelligent people into believing in fairy tales. However, I study religion in my spare time and am working towards a PhD in Theology. I find that the stories outlined within the bible and other religious books fascinating.

To me, religion has always been about control, a clever little way for the powerful to maintain control over the masses. I find that people are inherently weak minded and have to believe that they have an imaginary friend watching over them. In addition, people need to have a bad guy. Someone to blame when they face failure or misfortune. The ultimate scapegoat. Religionists have always had the cure for this flaw in humanity – God. But, with this, there comes a small price.

I’ve often wondered what it is in out nature that makes us so weak. Why do we feel it necessary to create fictional characters? We’ve done it since before the beginning of recorded history, long before the idea of a Judeo-Christian god or Jesus Christ emerged. After all these years, are we still that primitive that we must create Gods as a way to explain creation?

What is it about God and Jesus Christ that makes your religion legit over all the other religions of the world, past and present. This is a point that Richard Dawkins has brought up on many occasions, why do you believe in Jesus Christ and not Zeus or Eros? Why not Allah? The idea that every religion in the world is “the only true religion” does nothing more than discredit EVERY religion. The fact that every religion in the world has followers that have claimed to have some sort of divine intervention from their God does nothing more than raise doubt as to which religion is “telling the truth”. How can you commit to one religion and completely discredit every other religion?

[SilentWalrus]

Nub HAX.
That's how.
I also hate religion.
Ever since I told my parents I'm atheist they now shove religion down my throat.
I hates it.

[Trogdor]

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

How can you commit to one religion and completely discredit every other religion?

I believe in the free will I believe my God created so that he gives me the option to follow him or stray from him. I am open to listening to every other religion without immediatley discrediting them. Who am I to question another's intelligence and opinion? So I listen and I converse about other religions, but I stay a follower of Christ due to personal experience.

[Little Horn]

I'm not sure I understand. I'm assuming that when you speak of a personal experience you are suggesting that at some point in time in God felt it necessary to intervene in your life and help you along the way. Would this be a correct statement?

I'll tell you what I know. There is no God. I've seen things in my lifetime that no one should ever have to see. I spent 14 months in the desert of Iraq watching people die while people were trying to kill me. I spent time thinking that I will never make it back home to see my wife and kid. I spent time wondering why good men, my friends, had to die.

I remember going into Fallujah at the end of 2004 and seeing the streets lined with charred bodies. I remember thinking that red sand would be beautiful were it not stained red with blood. I remember pulling communications equipment out of an ambulance after it had been struck by an IED. I never knew that the human body held so much blood. Most of all, I remember the screams of the dying, praying for God to help them. It was obvious to me that their prayers had fallen on deaf ears.

With all this God felt in was worth his time to help you out with whatever your problem was at the time. I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend, but whatever problem you had going on in your life was nothing compared to the pain that these men and their families have been through.

Where was God in all of this?

[Gow616]

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

To me, religion has always been about control, a clever little way for the powerful to maintain control over the masses.

You don't even need religion to do this, people are inherently sheep and will always be so. People are a mob who believe what is fed to them whether its Religion, Anti-Religion, Politics or Rubber Baby Bumpers.

It is the individual who can choose to break free from such a mold and pursuit their own path and if that means believing in something than so be it but who are we to question what is right or wrong for another person when all our perception is colored by our own subjectivity?

Would it be fair for me to tell you "You are wrong, believe in Nike because that is correct". I would be totally ignoring what you have experienced and percieved in your life as to be right for you, would I not?

Atheists are quick to attack the Religious in a means to state they are correct much in the same way the Religious attack the Atheists.

As a Discordian, I sit outside this funny little circle and observe this, laughing at the fact that neither are right nor wrong but that they can't see that their own path is determined by their own mind not by what others say or do.

What you do with your life is determined by you, is it not? What is good for the gander is not good for the flock. You are free to choose what you want to be on your path, some less so than others.

Chaos has a funny way of influencing life a lot more than those who believe in Order think.

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

Why do we feel it necessary to create fictional characters?

You perceive them to be fictional whereas another perceives them to be real. Perception is subjective to the individual not objective. We cannot extend our perception to cover for another individual as we have not perceived what they have.

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

After all these years, are we still that primitive that we must create Gods as a way to explain creation?

Are we even advanced to move past cultural, racial and societal differences to end war and strife? Are we advanced enough to know why order does not exist in the universe though we keep trying to establish it and trying to find it?

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

How can you commit to one religion and completely discredit every other religion?

How can we commit to one political party over another? One brand of toothpaste over another? One shoe brand over another? One anything over another?

Humans by their very conception are subjective, perceptive beings who try to impose their supposed "objective" view on others to justify their existence or correct way of life.

You cannot ask a human to stop being human or can you?

EDIT: I should try to eliminate possessive pronouns and pronouns in general from being used in my replies but I was trying to answer some of your questions.

[mr.handsomeman]

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

I'll tell you what I know. There is no God. I've seen things in my lifetime that no one should ever have to see.

Where was God in all of this?

Everyone at one point or another in their life will see something that they shouldn't have had to seen,
I've SEEN some things too man, some really bad things, things that can go down with what you're talking about, except without the gore and blood and death, although death isn't the worst thing that can happen to you,

Where was God? God was right there with you, protecting you, YOU did not die in any of those situations you were in because God has a purpose for you,

you were meant to join Zuneboards and question God and let it be known what you think at this point in time, and I was meant to be here as well and let you know that hey, this is what I think, we were meant to throw ideas off of each other and maybe let you see the inside of what I view and I think,

I don't push away people that don't believe in what I believe, I don't say, "hey your religion is wrong", and i can definitely see where you're going with the whole

idea that every religion in the world is “the only true religion” does nothing more than discredit EVERY religion.

but I think that one of the things that seperates Christianity from A LOT of religions is that there's free will, I mean, you're not supossed to do a lot of things you know? But God is not going to stop you and send you to hell right then and there, no, he's going to give you another chance to come back to him and show him that you love him again,

Free will. God gives it to us, you can choose his son, or you can not, the choice is yours,

[Napoleon Iven Quinnly]

I see your point but hardily disagree, even within my own doctrine i see ways that people try to religiousize things to the point of being false, and in the bible it points that out, the pharisees and sagisees were people who made sure to follow every single law of moses and put themselves on a pedistal, if this is your perception of Christianity then you might be suprised, there are a few of us who actually believe what we say, i recognize science and religion as intertwined, i marvel at the fact that God created something that worked together so perfectly, another thing i look to as a sort of almost proof is that we are uniquely created in the imgae of God, think about all the speceies on this planet...there are millioins and yet how many intelligent species are there? 1... i am sorry you have had to experience what you did but just because you pray doesnt always mean God will do what you ask... he is God not Santa Clause he doesnt grant wishes, but instead allows things to happen that are ultimately good in your life even though we may not relize it... a good friend of mine died of cancer last year...although he died he touched many many people with his life and is probably the reason a good many people are saved today... i hope i answered question if not clearify and ask again ... i would really like to explain this to you

[Gow616]

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

With all this God felt in was worth his time to help you out with whatever your problem was at the time. I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend, but whatever problem you had going on in your life was nothing compared to the pain that these men and their families have been through.

Where was God in all of this?

I see humanity in all of this, unless there was no free will being executed.

Before the U.S. ever went into Iraq there were plenty more charred bodies and torn families especially amongst the Kurd and Chaldean people. Humanity will always destroy and save itself. A never-ending cycle of life and death. When has life or death truly needed meaning behind it?

An institution of order can never works amidst the chaos of humanity. Where it is instituted destruction follows suit to eliminate the disorderly eliminates that don't fall in line with the order.

Can it be said that without the presence of this or that, that humanity would not harm itself?

Is it the point of life to live with no meaning, no purpose, no raison d’être. What would be the point of living a life without meaning?

Would it not be better to attempt to live rather than just letting it all go because it is futile?

The only way to find any good in humanity is to create it because if you try to find it all you will be faced with is the fact that with sense comes senseless. This is a universe driven by polar opposites and balance. How would anyone know what life is without death?

How would anyone know what an atrocity is without civilized behavior?

A murder commits murder but sometimes it gets condoned when its a Government killing its own people for the sake of "it is not us". Is that the only way we are to look at this or any such similar situation?

[Little Horn]

You're right. Physically, I'm still here. I'm still alive and breathing right? So let's all thank God for that. Let's thank God for nightmares that I have every night. Let's thank God for the screams that deafen my ears to this day. Let's thank God for the terror that I have when driving down the street because every other car is an IED. Most of all, let's thank God for the guilt that I deal with everyday of my life knowing that I'm alive and my friends are dead. Let's all take a minute to thank God and Jesus for the "good" that God has given me.

As far as other "intelligent" species... How many other species of animals are so willing to completely destroy themselves as humans are? How many other species seem to make it a point to destroy the world? We are the only ones that I know about. Does this really make us more intelligent or simply more barbaric?

I'm well aware of the concept of free will and this is something that I've addressed before. Even you yourself Mr.handsomeman completely contradicted yourself with your last post. You speak about how I was meant join zuneboards and you were meant to be here to tell me your views. This implies the concept of "fate". Fate and free-will can not coexist. Fate is to imply that you have no control over what you do. That everything is destined whereas free will implies that you have complete and total control over your life. If you take into consideration the fact that God is omniscient (all knowing) and believe that he gave us all free will, this is a contradiction in the truest form of the word.

[Little Horn]

To me, the point of life is to live. I don't think the point of life is to stay on your knees. Just because there is no God or afterlife (the way I see it) does not mean that life is futile.

I don't blame anything that I've been through on anyone. I don't hold anyone accountable for the things that I've seen and been through. I understand that this is all a very real part of humanity. People will always set out to destroy each other. It's programmed in our genetic code.

Perhaps I came off too strong with everything that I saw in Iraq. I was trying to make a point I suppose and I think that it may have backfired. I should have known it would all come down to "God's will". Hindsight is always 20/20.

Being an Atheist at heart I understand that we as human beings are responsible for the horrific things that we inflict upon each other. Not God. When I ask these questions they are more or less rhetorical. I know the answer, I'm simply trying to incite people to think outside of their respective religious boxes.

At the same time, I'm trying to understand the attraction that people have to God. I've said it before that even if he were real I would never bow down a worship him. I can't idolize a being that is as vindictive and malevolent as the God that is outline in the Holy Bible, a being, who created me with desires and emotions that are "sinful" after the fact. I find it intriguing how anyone could willingly and seemingly, blindly follow a being of this nature.

I understand what you're saying and I do agree with you to a point. But I don't know that I've ever agreed 100% with anyone about anything in my life.

[BobtheWalrus]

When cave people first asked, "What's that?" (In grunts of course)
Another cave person explained what they thought it was

That was rather lame
How 'bout this

Do you believe in Aliens?
How 'bout bigfoot?
Can you really get cancer by standing in front of a microwave?

Nobody knows, so they fill in their own answers and hope that they're right

Christian ideas developed in a society where life was hard. Life sucked for the low people, and they had to hope that where they went next was going to be better. Up until the Renaissance people only thougt about the next life. But then they started to think about the life they're living NOW. Life for the average, middle class, had gotten better and didn't need to depend on the old ideas of how things were

So now, Christians are trying to play both fields, live life now, and live life later
~My thoughts, trying not to offend

[Gow616]

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

To me, the point of life is to live. I don't think the point of life is to stay on your knees. Just because there is no God or afterlife (the way I see it) does not mean that life is futile.

Everyone is different, for some this is the answer, for you it is not. For me it may be cause to dance.

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

Perhaps I came off too strong with everything that I saw in Iraq. I was trying to make a point I suppose and I think that it may have backfired. I should have known it would all come down to "God's will". Hindsight is always 20/20.

Nah you didn't come off strong. I have friends over there or went over to Afghanistan, some have come back and some haven't. I stopped looking for names.

I don't see it as God's will or boiling down to it other than just an execution of free will by a sole individual or a group of individuals over others.

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

... I'm simply trying to incite people to think outside of their respective religious boxes.

I have always advocated this as I believe people should understand what they believe in, why and what for. Just following blindly is not the route to take.

Plus we can't all believe in the same thing because we do not all perceive it exactly the same way.

Thus, 100% agreement can never be achieved...or maybe it can be perceived as achieved. Who knows?

[Little Horn]

Originally Posted by Gow616

I have always advocated this as I believe people should understand what they believe in, why and what for. Just following blindly is not the route to take.

This is my over all point. I feel that many people believe because they are told they are supposed to and not because they truly understand their religion of choice. Ignorance is the greatest threat against humanity yet people embrace it willingly and without remorse. I'm not trying to change anyone's point of view or challenge their beliefs but rather challenge the reasons WHY they believe. I've often said that if you truly believe in something then good for you. But don't commit to something that you really have no idea about just for the sake of "fitting in" or because you have been told to do so since birth. We have all have free will (whether given to us by a god or not) and we have the choice to follow what we hold true and I feel that many people who follow a set religion fail to realize this.

[mr.handsomeman]

Originally Posted by floorpuncher

You're right. Physically, I'm still here. I'm still alive and breathing right? So let's all thank God for that. Let's thank God for nightmares that I have every night. Let's thank God for the screams that deafen my ears to this day. Let's thank God for the terror that I have when driving down the street because every other car is an IED. Most of all, let's thank God for the guilt that I deal with everyday of my life knowing that I'm alive and my friends are dead. Let's all take a minute to thank God and Jesus for the "good" that God has given me.

I don't blame anything that I've been through on anyone. I don't hold anyone accountable for the things that I've seen and been through.

I believe you just contradicted yourself right here man. I mean, you're saying that it's because of God that all of these bad things hapenned to you, yet you say that you're not blaming anyone for what has hapenned.

I never said anything about fate, I can see how you would draw to that conclusion, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that God gives you a choice, you can love him or you can't, but he knows what you're going to choose before hand and he's going to set things up in your life that are going to make you at least think about loving him. like me. I'm here on my own free will, but God knew that i was going to be here, it's not fate, it's just meant to be.