I have a unique (I think) issue...

[Woadan]

Greetings all. This is an excellent site, and I'm glad I found it.

This is my first post...

I'm a tech gadget geek, and I am usually able to help myself in solving a problem, but this one has me stumped. Not so much in what is causing the problem, but in how to resolve it.)

OK, the details first:

VERSION OF ZUNE
======================
I have a Zune 30. (A brown one if it matters.)

VERSION OF ZUNE SOFTWARE/FIRMWARE
=====================================
Version 2.5

OPERATING SYSTEM
======================
Windows Vista™ Home Premium. (A dual core 5450 Intel chip, running at 1.66 GHz with 3 GB of RAM if it matters.)

PROBLEM DESCRIPTION
=======================
I have two separate releases of a few of my albums, and one of these is where the problem is. (In the case of the others, all the tracks were the same, but had different artwork.)

In 2005 Rob Dickinson of Catherine Wheel fame released a solo effort titled "Fresh Wine for the Horses". It has 11 tracks. In 2008, it was re-released with 2 disks. The first disk has all of the songs on the original PLUS one additional track, AND the tracks are in a different order from the original. The second disk has new cuts of tracks from Catherine Wheel recorded by Rob. The second disk is fine, but the first disk just won't be recognized by the Zune software, even after repeated updates (in the file folder window) of the metadata. (I changed the song names and the date of the release and the album name. When the Zine software is invoked, it invariably adds 2005 to the date.

I suspect the issue is that whatever online database the Zune software goes to just doesn't know the 2008 edition exists with the additional track and new order. What I don't know is if this is for sure the cause of the problem, and if it is, how to resolve it. (To add insult to injury, the Zune social shows both album covers, plus a photo for the new track's MP3 when it was released prior to the new edition of the album.)

Additionally, in the 2005 edition of the album, the tracks do not appear in numbered order, although all the tracks do appear. And only the tracks with a different order from the 2005 release show up for the 2008 release. (All 6 tracks on the second disk are fine.) Also, the album art for the 2008 release is being used in the 2005 release as well as for the second disk in the 2008 release, and no image appears for the 1st disk of the 2008 release.

All of the tracks on all 3 disks appear in the folder where I store the WMA lossless files. (I rip WMA lossless versions of my CDs.)

THINGS ATTEMPTED SO FAR
===========================
Updating the metatags for each song, see above. (The first time I did it while the Zune software was up, subsequent times it has been closed.)

I removed the files from the folder all my albums are in. (I keep them on a USB external HDD.) I re-ripped the 3 CDs. (This was when I realized the connection was being made for the 2005 release on the 2008. It had the names of the songs in the original 2005 order, and it just named the 12th track "12 track 12".)

I have also followed the instructions from Microsoft kb article 945319 (solutions 1 and 2). (Couldn't post the URL.)

However, I should note that this laptop was purchased in February 2008 and I never had an earlier version of the Zune software installed. It has not resolved the issue. (And I have no file named "CurrentDatabase_365.wmdb" on my system, either.)

HAVE YOU SEARCHED ONLINE/ZUNEBOARDS TO FIND A SOLUTION?
================================================== ========
I have, but none of the solutions seems to be specifically for this issue.

HAVE YOU RECEIVED ANY ERROR MESSAGES?
========================================
No error messages. Just the errors I mention.

ATTACHMENTS
====================
No attachments.


My suspicion is that I need to edit the metatags with a decent editor. However, since I have edited them and then the Zune software just seems to update them again behind my back, I'm not sure how to prevent the update. But it is just a suspicion, and I'm happy to be informed otherwise.

Also, the Zune software doesn't rip to the folder specified in the configuration area, which points to the USB HDD. It rips the files to a Zune folder on the laptop's HDD. I have been ripping CDs using WMP, as it rips them to the appropriate directory.


One other comment, unrelated to the problem above: Whenever I start up or close down the Zune software, it seems to lock up my laptop. If I have any media playing it stops for about 10 seconds, then stutters a bit and then behaves. Pages loading in browsers often report errors, and apps stop responding as well. Even the mouse strokes and the keyboard clicks don't register. Is anybody else having this issue?


I appreciate any assistance anybody can offer.


~Woadan
--Scratching his head, confused.

[Tobososlow]

Have you tried editing them in the Zune software? I know it's not the best but I feel it's a decent editor to use, especially since your problem is with the software itself. Also I don't have the second issue you reported, I haven't really heard of anything like that.

[seifer93]

If the second album has all the same songs from the first and then some, then why not just keep the second and forget the first? if it is about the order of the song you can always just make a play list.

[Woadan]

Thanx, Tobososlow.

I don't think it's going to make a difference where I edit the metadata as long as the Zune software keeps updating it after I edit the fields. Remember, all of the songs are in the folders for their albums, and in the correct order.

If the issue is really with the fact that the database of all albums doesn't know about (hasn't yet been updated with the details of) the re-release, then no metadata editor is ever really going to solve the problem because after I start up the software, it will just update again, and I'll still be right where I am now.

I had a similar problem with "The Village Lanterne" from Blackmore's Night. The databade was billing the artist as "Ritchie Blackmore". When I updated the metadata to the "correct" artist name, but it hasn't shifted it back.

For that reason, I am unsure if the issue is truly with the online database of all albums. And I need to figure out exactly where the problem is before I try to fix the problem.

Woadan

Originally Posted by Tobososlow

Have you tried editing them in the Zune software? I know it's not the best but I feel it's a decent editor to use, especially since your problem is with the software itself. Also I don't have the second issue you reported, I haven't really heard of anything like that.

[Woadan]

Thanx, seifer93.

Doing this would be akin to rebooting my modem. It is a temporary fix, not a permanent. I want the permanent fix.

I guess my main issue is that the result is a work-around. I prefer to figure out the root cause, and fix that. It allows me to rip all my CDs, which is the ultimate goal. (I have a long way to go yet on the ripping, and I have a fair number of re-issues in the collection.)

Woadan

Originally Posted by seifer93

If the second album has all the same songs from the first and then some, then why not just keep the second and forget the first? if it is about the order of the song you can always just make a play list.

[Tobososlow]

So your Zune software is set to update automatically? Why not just turn that feature off and manually click update when you want it to find album art and other details about an album.

[Woadan]

Tobososlow, I may have misstated that. I don't know for sure that the Zune is updating from the web. But some of the conversations I've read would seem to indicate that it does.

I have been doing some more digging, and I've decided to go nuclear on this issue. I ran the ZuneMediaCollectionResetTool.exe tool. (I found the links for that here, thank you.) I then uninstalled the Zune software. And following guidance I have found all over the net, some of it here, I also renamed 2 folders named Zune to _Zune_:

1. C:\Users\{Username}\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Zune
2. C:\Users\Chris.vanGorder\Music\Zune

I also renamed the C:\Users\{Username}\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Zune\Z uneStore.sdf to C:\Users\{Username}\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Zune\Z uneStore.sdf.old. (Just to be sure it doesn't read the data despite the folder rename.

I am going to reboot the system to clear the mem cache and then reinstall the Zune software.

I have also renamed the C:\Users\{Username}\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Media Player to C:\Users\{Username}\AppData\Local\Microsoft\_Media Player_. I found a number of files in that folder with fiiles ending in *.wmdb (Windows Media database?), including the CurrentDatabase_360.wmdb file. I will append each of them with .old.

On a sad additional note, it seems that WMP was getting the files wrong as well. I simply deleted the library from WMP. (I did not also delete the files, thankfully!)

I checked Discogs, freedb and gnudb, and none of them have the 2008 release in their databases. (Grrrrr!)

I will get back to let you all know how successful I am.

Woadan

Originally Posted by Tobososlow

So your Zune software is set to update automatically? Why not just turn that feature off and manually click update when you want it to find album art and other details about an album.

[Locke]

Seems a little extreme....because the solution is really, really simple. Wait. That's it. AMG is fairly slow in getting updates up, and then through Microsoft to boot. However, once that's done, it should be simple to fix the problem. If it has been released, and you don't have some pre-release copy, it shouldn't be too long. With the 2.5 software, which I assume you have, all you need to do is right click, Find Album Info, and then find the appropriate album. Just check a couple times a week, and in a few weeks, it ought to appear.

[Woadan]

Locke, why should I have to wait to have my collection be both complete, and correct? At any rate, the album info for both the 2005 and the 2008 releases are available with the Find Album Info trick. (Ironically, the album art Microsoft has for the 2005 release is actually the art for the 2008 release.)

The tracks are in the correct order, and have the correct names. If I accept the album data from the Zune interface, it appends the new metadata to each track, which means that it also keeps what was already there.

Why did WMP think the 2008 album was the 2005? When a CD is ripped, if you aren't blocking the online check, it checks the metabase (I'm not sure which metabase Microsoft points to) on the basis of how many tracks are on the album, and the total duration of the CD. It takes the information and converts it into a 32-bit hexadecimal number, and that number is checked against the metabase for the album info. While I suppose it is possible to have that number exactly the same for both, I think the chances are slim and none. But when I ripped the 2008 release, it didn't name the songs in the new order, and it didn't name them tracks 01 through 12. It named the first 11 tracks according to the original releases order, and simply named the 12th as Track 12.

If the new album was NOT yet in the metabase, then it shouldn't have named any of the tracks like it did. If the information WAS available in the metabase, then it was either:

a) corrupt at the metabase, OR
b) it was not being respected by Windows/Zune software, OR
c) the data became corrupt once it hit Windows/Zune software.

Why would a metatag editor like Mp3tag show all the metadata correctly, but after it goes into a Zune-monitored folder, the metadata for the re-release AND the metadata for the original release are now BOTH in the metatags? It would seem that something about how Microsoft manages the metadata in Windows or in the Zune software is corrupt.

Woadan

Originally Posted by Locke

Seems a little extreme....because the solution is really, really simple. Wait. That's it. AMG is fairly slow in getting updates up, and then through Microsoft to boot. However, once that's done, it should be simple to fix the problem. If it has been released, and you don't have some pre-release copy, it shouldn't be too long. With the 2.5 software, which I assume you have, all you need to do is right click, Find Album Info, and then find the appropriate album. Just check a couple times a week, and in a few weeks, it ought to appear.

[Woadan]

Well, I guess an update is in order.

I would like to first thank Tobososlow, seifer93, and Locke for their comments and insight.

I would also like to apologize if I seemed crabby at any one in particular. I am crabby about the issue. But not to those who at least tried to help. I hope there are no hard feelings.

I'm very disappointed that wherever Microsoft is getting its data from is not 100% correct. And I could live with that if Microsoft didn't interfere with the metatags after I expressly update them. Whether it is by design or default, they have failed me, and possibly others as well, by not respecting the end user. Even if I am for some reason wrong with what I put in the tags, the data is in relation to MY collection, and it resides on MY system. It's not like I'm breaking any laws here.

So where does this all leave me in regards to the Zune software? Well, it is an unqualified failure, because I must now resort to finding a solution for everything the Zune software had been doing for me.

I probably still need to have the Zune software installed so I can synch up to the Zune device, but for anything else I can't trust it.

I don't have an answer yet as to what I will use to rip my CDs, play my media, and collect the podcasts I subscribe to. I can only say it won't be the Zune software, because if I have to resort to work-arounds, it isn't a solution, it's a compromise. And I'm sure there is something out there that will work. I'll report back here on what I decide on after I test some of the available options.

Thank you again for the assistance. Despite no resolution to the Zune's shortcomings, I found a great community here.

Woadan

[dabeastofdamusic]

wow this is some serious issue, i cant think of anything. try renaming the files?