[Locke]

Originally Posted by MackinawTJ

Locke, do you think that only christians get saved or people from other religions who believe in some sort of god as well? I mean, do you see different religions as paths that all ultimately lead to the same place? Basically, my question is the same as dark616's, if they follow the general sense of their own personal tribe's concept of god, do they get saved?

And about animals, you may not realize how alike they are to us. Did you know monkeys can do anything humans can except verbally speak? Scientists have found qualities in animals that were previously thought to be unique to humans alone, such as the use of tools, ability to decieve others, a moral sense, ability to plan for the future, etc. They think, they feel, they are like us. If anything has a 'soul', animals must.

You talk about this "general revelation", a feeling that everyone has that god is real. I do not have this feeling whatsoever. I don't feel that god is watching over me, or taking care of me, or listening to me. I don't have this "sense of god" you are talking about. Why?

How about all the people who lived before jesus, people who knew nothing of god because christianity did not exist?

Here's a good quote by Eddie Vedder from an interview...

"Man lived on the planet -- [placing his fingers an inch apart], this is 5000 years of semi-recorded history. And God and the Bible, that came in somewhere around the middle, maybe 2000. This is the last 2000, this is what we're about to celebrate [indicating about an 1/8th of an inch with his fingers]. Now, humans, in some shape or form, have been on the earth for three million years [pointing across the room to indicate the distance]. So, all this time, from there [gesturing toward the other side of the room], to here [indicating the 1/8th of an inch], there was no God, there was no story, there was no myth and people lived on this planet and they wandered and they gathered and they did all these things. The planet was never threatened. How did they survive for all this time without this belief in God? I'd like to ask this to someone who knows about Christianity and maybe you do. That just seems funny to me."

Yeah, pretty much just those who who follow Christ. The Bible leaves no room for anything else, and without that, where would any Christian be?

Just because we share physical similarities with other animals does not make them "like," at least not as far as I've been arguing. They key thing that determines whether or not something is responsible to God for its actions is whether or not it is made in God's image, meant to share in His glory and satisfaction. Animals just don't have that, and that is why we have dominion over them, a responsible stewardship.

You may not have a sense of God the person, but you must have some sense of something more than yourself. It doesn't refer to a presence per se, but everyone has a general sense of moral knowledge. After all, Christians aren't the only ones who can be "good people." And I think most people realize that their actions may have consequences beyond their knowledge or control. Knowledge is a pretty key part of Christianity; after all, God gave "the Law" to the Israelites so that they might know their sin and turn against it.

Basically, those before Christ were under a different coventant than those after his death. Here's some of the stuff I've posted on it before:

The people before and after Jesus lived under different covenants! God made conventants with the Israelites because of their sin. Certain regulations and laws were required. But they were still saved under them. However, when Jesus died, he brought about a negotiation of terms of these covnentants. He would go before the Father and be our mediator, rather than any earthly sacrifice or priest. He paid the price with His blood, and so, we now live through him instead of the covenant before His death. In short, Christ provided the service of the sacrifice for us, and made us all priests capable of talking to Him. He will answer to the Father for our sins.

Now, this quote simply ignores the possibility of a God, and ignores half of the rules of a good argument. It's also wrong, because Christians don't, or at least shouldn't, believe in such a young Earth. The Earth is young, but not nearly as young as that figure. Theories have been floating around from 10,000 to 50,000. Small gripe aside, this only makes sense if his worldview is absolutely true. I'm fairly sure that Christians don't hold to a millions-of-years sort of theory. Simple debating rules dictate that such blatant disregard for any other view is dangerous when making a convincing argument, especially if the claims aren't backed up by ANYTHING, as happens in this quote. So, it really fails to sway me, and likely most Christians, in the least bit. This does not serve as an argument, but a statement.